No building regs - and long crack

[NCHouseBuy]

Hi all - I'm buying a semi with an L shape open plan living, dining and kitchen. It is absoutely lovely, I'm at the last stages, have the mortgage, about to exchange 🥳...turns out it doesn't have building regs 🤦‍♀️ and I've now found a fine lateral crack running right across the middle of the opened living/diner. I've found more cracks in the bathroom ceiling upstairs - right above that running downstairs.

Help me - how bad is this? Is there any hope this is just the house settling (and therefore is it worth paying to get a structural engineet in to look at it)? Or is this - to those in the know - a lost cause?

Thanks everyone...argh🤦‍♀️

I take a very dim view of work done without BR approval.

If it had been done properly, why wouldn't they have it?

If it wasn't done properly, why would you buy it?

in some cases (loft conversions, usually), it costs more to rip out the bad work and do it again, than to buy a house without one, and the the job right, first time.

on the other hand, you might be lucky....

Sounds like someone’s ripped out a load bearing wall. The crack will be from the ceiling sagging. I bet if you had a spirit level in the rooms above the kitchen and diner, you’d see it sagging towards where the wall between kitchen and diner was.

Ok, yes - you do need to get retrospective building regs before you exchange but no, it shouldn’t be a deal breaker..... first let the vendors know you need it in place and put the onus on them to sort (yes, someone will need to check what steels are in but it’s not a huge mega job). Also, go back to your surveyor, make them aware of the lack of regs and ask what evidence they saw of any structural issues - ask what their advice (other than retrospective) is. It’s a pain but (assuming the correct support is in place) isn’t a reason to walk just yet...

You would be mad to go ahead with retrospective building consent
At the moment it's the sellers' problem,don't make it yours
Indemnity insurance it not a substitute in these circumstances

I think we all mean that sellers should arrange / pay for the retrospective BR, not the OP!

Regularisation seems to cost a few hundred pounds - is that it for cost, or am I missing something?

Obviously assuming the whole thing isn't about to cave in...

There are a few assumptions going on here.

B Regs are now often not council employees. They are inspectors employed by compromise where services have been contracted out. None of them are structural engineers. A structural engineer will be able to look at this house and evaluate structural stability.

Building Inspectors typically review the designs of engineers but it’s a tick box exercise. They don’t design anything. They then inspect the property to make sure the right size beam is in place that matches the spec they have been given. In your case, it appears they were not given any specs for beams (RSJs). So you need to engage an engineer. Or the owner does. Then you can all move forward. At the moment contacting BR or the council is useless. They have no information!

If there is no beam in place, the SEng can design one for the vendors and it can be installed - at their cost. Then buy it.

Agree with @PigletJohn . We have had several extensions over the years. The last one was huge and replaced another extension which was easier to demolish and replace.

The only reason not to have building regs is because they wanted to cut corners and save costs...knowing they will move on before long.

We even directed we wanted to use the LA a building inspector instead of a private one. He was excellent, not intrusive but checked everything thoroughly and it was clear he rated our builder which helped.

We had extremely large steels put in. The engineering calculations and work was significant. It wasn't just putting in steels, it was the fact that some existing foundations (despite being 2 metres deep had to be drilled out and reinforced concrete put in with special load bearing blocks. It was very impressive. However when we demolished the old extension...the builder showed some structural work when it was uncovered, I i literally gasped in shock...I'm amazed it didn't bloody well fall down. So despite whatever survey you get, you can't see what is underneath plaster etc. For example two RSJ's were welded together but was hardly any welds. It wasn't bolted either

Frankly getting building regs in retrospect is only part of the issue...you can't uncover everything to check it.

So despite having building regs for ours....we have over 100 pictures of every bit of it as a shell, including close up photos of all welds on the steels, the foundations and also the reinforcements

Compromise: companies

There are no LA building inspectors in some areas. So no choice! As you say, inspectors don’t design. An engineer will have a pretty good idea in a house with walls opened up. They certainly will know of a beam is there or not. Yes, anchoring the beam and other hidden work can be an issue but at least they would know what the crack means. This wasn’t a building project. It was removal of internal walls and a fairly small job.

@PresentingPercy

Well I wouldn't accept without the whole steel being exposed. And if it was large, it doesn't say the foundations are suitable.

The extension we had ripped out had steels with a lot of weight above with 20cm overlaps to supporting walls. Out new ones have 75 cm

Not sure there's anything to discuss here - ask for the vendor to complete a structural survey at their cost or appoint one yourself. You need it checked out.

It is not an extension. So no doubt the foundations are not altered. The steel is in place of a wall. Yes, by all means look at foundations but this is just opening up an interior so it is not the same at all. What might be of concern is size of steels and bedding the steels into the wall. Victorian single thickness walls need piers for the steels to rest on. Yes, the vendors should perhaps do all of this if they want a sale.

Thanks everyone for all the replies and information. I now have two possible (recommended) structural engineers I can use, same price, one local smaller firm, one from neighbouring town bigger firm. Local engineer can drill holes to ascertain the existence of beam etc, building materials used and calculate strength. Other firm have a camera they can put in to look at the structure and/or pull up carpet and floor boards upstairs to look into the floor and inspect visually.

Which seems most realistic and will give the best reassurance? I'm leaning towards the first one as I'd rather calculations are done and materials ascertained - but can this really be done just by drilling holes? 🤞

I would say taking upstairs floorboards up at each end will tell you all you need to know , you should be able to see how the steel is supported on the walls and also if the steel is the right gauge for the span. Also how the floor above is supported on to the steel.

Might need to look in the middle to , just to make sure it’s not 2 bodged together 😀

@PigletJohn

I take a very dim view of work done without BR approval.

If it had been done properly, why wouldn't they have it?

If it wasn't done properly, why would you buy it?

in some cases (loft conversions, usually), it costs more to rip out the bad work and do it again, than to buy a house without one, and the the job right, first time.

on the other hand, you might be lucky....

Exactly.

Why the fuck would you buy a very expensive item that you may not be able to sell again...?

Of course a house is saleable if the work is done properly. It just needs to be investigated and then the owners should put right what’s wrong. It’s no massive issue and it’s solvable with good Will.

First thing is that the cracking you have described doesn't sound like much of a problem. If you are having to look that hard for it then it really is pretty minor. I would also expect some cracking if walls have been opened up.

But I wouldn't go for it unless BR are provided, and I would make that condition of the sale. There's more to it than just checking a beam - padstones, lateral stability, walls, foundations etc should all be reviewed by the structural engineer.

I'm not sure from what you've said whether the engineers you have contacted are to give reassurance or if they would try and get BR. As much as anything, if you don't get BR then it's likely to be a sticking point when you come to sell it.

i would walk away.
you seem to be swayed by cosmetic details.
why did the people who did the alterations move so soon after. and why are the present owners wanting to move so soon.
just walk away.
this sounds well dodgy.
why take a chance, have all this extra hassle.

I'm with 'whatscomingoverthehill'. It's more than likely fine, but it's a PITA without the BR.
You haven't mentioned the age of the house, or if they removed the walls completely or left stubs for the beam to sit on. With no stubs, and cavity walls, the beam sits at best on 100mm depth padstone. Again, nothing to be that concerned about, because it's likely only supporting the wall above, and then some of the weight of the bedroom ceilings. All that weight will then come down onto the padstones and distribute across the walls downstairs, pyramid style.
Padstones can easily be fitted retrospectively, it required a replaster afterwards. The main thing is that beam is subtanial enough.
And for that, you need the structural engineer.
Personally this is the vendors issue, you should negotiate the cost of the survey off the price, or go 50/50.

The people who sold it to the vendors appear to have done it up and sold on for profit. The current vendors have kids and the house will be getting too small for them. Possibly.

I'm happy to get regs later, I can time it to a reno I'm planning and take the walls open for it, I just need to know whether I'm able to ascertain whether the house is structurally sound from what these two structrual engineers have suggested?

Or is that not possible without ripping the walls open now?

Would a house without building regs be unsellable down the track where a structrual report provides reassurance?

I'm prepared to walk away, but most houses have some sort of issue and I don't want to walk away if this is solvable and if I'm not just taking on someone else's problem...I've already started short listing on rightmove again...

House is mid C20th, so I understand the foundations aren't deep. The walls have been completely removed (though there is possibly some structure in the walls which enclose the hall/stairs).

@JamMakingWannaBe

There's no excuse not to have BR on a 4 yo extension. Proceed with caution.

Don't proceed at all! Walk away, there will be another house with fewer problems.

Foundations are irrelevant as you don't have a central point, the weight distributes out both ways from the padstones.
Drilling small holes where the padstones should be will reveal if they exist and how large they are. Very difficult to drill into a padstone.
The crack is most likely where they have skimmed the whole wall, and there is shrinkage where they made good the wall removal bit of the plastering.
My (layman ex-builder) advice is the engineers can ascertain the integrity. I'd go with the drilling man, but also get him to pull up a couple of floorboards upstairs.
Bear in mind, this is the vendors problem, not yours, they should be meeting the cost and getting the retrospective BR.