Neighbour and Fence

[FencedInBoundary]

Hello,

I live on a "new" build estate which is 23 years old, next door to a couple who have owned their property for 23 years.

I've lived here for 6 years. Our properties are terraced with my property end of terrace and staggered back a little - the back of mine juts out further than theirs by about 2 metres.

The fence between our gardens is my responsibility.

Soon after moving in, I noticed that my fence is within my garden by around 30cm, the whole length of the two gardens, leaving 30cm of my property within their garden and an old fence post attached to my wall.

I am now in a position to have the fence re-done and I would like to reinstate the original boundary.

I have no idea when the fence was moved to within my boundary but the fence looks to be between 5-10 years old.

I've mentioned my plans to reinstate the original fence line a couple of years ago to the neighbours and they had no issue, we have since fallen out (the wife is really odd and has behaved quite bizarrely for no reason).

So, my question is - can they claim adverse possession? Can I just move the fence back to my property line?

Should add that the plans show the boundary to be in line with the end of my property!

Move the fence back to your line, possibly sending them a letter recorded/solicitor & copy of the plan

It’s a good thing you are doing it sooner than later, & as you’ve already fallen out, who cares what they think it’s your land

I have a similar issue. The property next door is rented and the previous owner moved the boundaries years ago. We checked with land registry and it's clear that the boundaries were moved.
As I won't be staying here I won't do anything but if I were never going to move I would write to the owner informing him what I am doing and then do it.

No they can't. Rules around adverse possession changed a while back and frankly it's a misnomer now. As long as you're certain then notify them in writing and get on with it. You might want to put up a 'wildlife camera' to observe the fence subsequent to works to see if the squirrels [neighbours] try to knock it down...

Is it because the previous fence had the "nice" side facing your garden? If so, it would have been attached on the other side of the post. When you switch the way the fence faces, you lose the bit that's the thickness of the post, although this is around 4 inches rather than the foot you've lost.

Have you got your deeds that show the boundary and who the fence belongs to (indicated by a T)? If so, show these to the tradesperson erecting the fence (if you aren't doing it yourself) and post a photocopy of the deeds and a friendly note saying you've replaced the fence to the original position.

So let me get this straight, you saw the property with the fence in the current position, you were happy with this, you bought the house knowing this was where the fence position was and "shortly" after moving in you realised the fence wasn't on the boundary line.

And now you want to move the fence? After 23 years of it possibly being in that position and 6 years after you initially noticed it being in that position? Unbelievable.

Loofah has it right, suggesting a camera. You have no idea how fucking crazy people can get. Legally you may be in the right but that does not make this straight forward. Have a wander over to GardenLaw forum where you can see how a boundary issue/fence/right of way can lead to the most unbelievable behaviour from people. You have already indicated that we have since fallen out (the wife is really odd and has behaved quite bizarrely for no reason) and you want to poke the sleeping bear?

Adverse possession law changed, so now after 10 years the person can apply to have the land transferred to them, the owner of said land has 2 years in which to contest this and make steps to claim their land back.

However, say you put your fence up in the new position and your neighbour then takes it down, the police won't touch it even if they damage your fence, yes yes you will claim criminal damage, but the police will tell you it is a civil matter. So then you will need a solicitor, that solicitor doesn't live next door to the crazy neighbour and their letters don't put your fence back up. You would then have to take it to court and even then they could argue the fence has been there for 23 years.

Just put the fucking fence in the same line it is in. 30cm is nothing. If it was acres I could understand it. I have seen boundary disputes go pear, even with a surveyor telling the neighbour they are in the wrong. It just lines the pockets of solicitors and surveyors. Once you get to that stage you would struggle to sell, if they become problem neighbours from now on you would have a dispute on the property. Imagine every viewer gets a mouthful from the neighbour (alcoholic) years on after the dispute and you are just stuck in that house, the neighbour doesn't want you to move because you provide entertainment for them. They ring the estate agent and abuse them too. That happened to my friend. The only reason they could finally move was when the neighbour died.

'30cm is nothing'

30 CM along the entire length of a property (including the 2 extra metres at the end) would be enough to want to claim back I think!!!

Thank you all for your replies.

@NachoNachoMan
Looking at it, previously the 'nice' side would have been to their side but now the nice side is into my garden, so both posts (old and new) are in their garden. My diagram doesn't make that clear.

I would be changing it so it is back to the nice side facing them, post my side.

@leafcolourchanger
I'm only now in a position to throw money at this fence - the house and garden needed a lot of work that took priority.

I did not notice this when viewing - there were large bushes against the fence. It wasn't until we'd moved in, cut back some plants and started to enjoy the garden that my partner pointed it out.

I take your point about neighbour disputes, this doesn't mean that people should be push overs.
I have had enough of their crap over the last couple of years and honestly, they're old with multiple health issues so I think I'll take my chances.

I have someone coming round to quote for the fence.

I have a camera up already for other reasons.

I’d send a letter by recorded delivery as proof it’s been sent to let them know you will be completing the work and then get on with it.

I don’t think you’d camera is allowed to film them on their land but I’d probably mention in the letter that your security camera covers the fence so you will be able to confirm all due care and diligence will be maintained whilst it is being put in place and no damage caused. Hopefully that will be enough to make them realise any retaliation by them will be recorded so not worth bothering with.

Move it back. Let them have a fit. Do nothing. If they want to spend money on a solicitor who deals with boundary disputes that’s there money to burn.

*their

I think I said them the wrong way round in my previous post 🙈 I meant current fence side is nice, d'oh! I have the posts facing my side which gives us marginally more room. And it's better to hang wall baskets on and for a hook for the washing line 😁

@Anordinarymum

I have a similar issue. The property next door is rented and the previous owner moved the boundaries years ago. We checked with land registry and it's clear that the boundaries were moved. As I won't be staying here I won't do anything but if I were never going to move I would write to the owner informing him what I am doing and then do it.

This happened with a house on my street. When they went to sell the new owner insisted the fence was moved back before she would sign. Neighbour was really cross because it was only about 20cm - but I can see why the new owner wanted it resolved.

We are in the opposite position. Our neighbour built a wall between our properties years ago (before my time) but built it well over onto his land - probably by 30cm or so. The land on our side of the wall effectively became part of our front garden flower border.

We now have new neighbours and I fully expect them to demolish the wall at some point to widen the driveway, and to reclaim their land. I have no problem with that at all, even though I'll have to shift some plants. But then I hope I'm a nice neighbour

I like your attitude, OP. We had a different fencing issue with our previous neighbour who had lived there 25+ years and in the end, I caught him damaging our fence (twat). But you’re not being vindictive, you didn’t move in and instantly demand your land back! It’s been 6 years and now you’ve got round to the fence and when it comes down, you’re going to reinstate the boundaries. Simple. Tough luck.

It’s been 6 years and now you’ve got round to the fence and when it comes down, you’re going to reinstate the boundaries. Simple. Tough luck

The boundary is now the fence. That is how boundary law works.

You could find yourself on the wrong side of a decision and thousands out of pocket. Tread carefully.

Totally willing to accept that @positivelynegative as our issue wasn’t a boundary dispute (thankfully!) and I don’t know much about boundary law. I apologise for the flippant comment, I meant if OP is legally allowed to move it and the neighbours don’t like it because “that’s not how it was before...” then that’s unfortunate but doesn’t mean OP shouldn’t move it. I lived with “but John and Joan used to do this... but John and Joan never did X... that’s the way it’s always been done around here” and it’s really annoying and invasive.

Forgot to add, we were far too nice with our neighbours and let them walk all over us because they’d lived there for 25 years and conceded to them for an easy life and he ultimately ended up damaging our property despite us giving into them every single step of the way. Definitely don’t want to give bad advice and that wasn’t my intention! Would just hate for OP to be bullied into something like we were even though she’s legally in the right. (If she is, of course!)

@LondonStone Thanks :grin:

@positivelynegative, would you be able to elaborate in how I could end up with issues, so I can try and avoid this.

The deeds show the boundary clearly, they haven't lodged an adverse possession claim and part of my property is currently within their garden.

The issue is that the scale in the plans is too big so that 30cm is considered a margin of error.
You can’t prove it’s incorrect, nor how long the fence has been like that.

30cm is not big enough for an adverse possession claim.

Unfortunately we have almost the same issue and we’ve been told it’s a very very difficult area of law, nothing is straight forward, boundaries are objects, fight at your peril, had over £5k on account and we’ll get started.

I suggest you go to the garden law website and read up. It’s not likely that you’ve got a leg to stand on and you could go to war, spend 50k and walk into a court that has a judge that is uninterested, unwilling to listen and rules against you without opening the file.

When I look at my situation and I hear what you're saying and other's experience of similar, I just think it beggars belief really.

I understand that in some cases the c30cm might be hard to prove but the back part of my house is in their garden as it currently stands, and if you look at any of the properties around here, the fence lines are in line with where properties join.

If I move the fence and they kick up a fuss, any criminal damage aside, would the first step involve me having to reinstate back to the current position?

If I move the fence and they kick up a fuss, any criminal damage aside, would the first step involve me having to reinstate back to the current position?

It totally depends on their reaction. If they remove the fence, then what?!

@positivelynegative I think they'd struggle to due to placement of various outbuildings on their land.

They've placed some rather large sheds etc on the original boundary line - not all shown in my diagram and not all to scale just in case identifiable.

In that sense, this works in my favour.

did anybody realize you can down load google earth? & than if you download the professional one (I think that's what its called, its sometime since I did this!) you can have aerial photographs - even historic ones -so you can tell when the fencing was done. But you should remember that if you had wanted to do this you really should have started the route to telling them you disagreed with their fence placement right at the beginning.
Also your council will have a records office which may well have other aerial photos (bit problematic at the moment because it means visiting the office to do this)