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help please on party wall issues

11 replies

HelenD1999 · 01/11/2020 19:12

Dear all,

help please on the party wall!!

We have following issues with our neighbour on the party wall:

  1. 3 months ago, our neighbour removed our fence and replaced it with a brick wall as his tenant requested so. He gained the verbal agreement from my husband, but he built it on our side and moved the original wall by 15cm without discussing with us. Despite our disagreement he still had builder finished building it.

  2. The neighbour’s tree has grown so big that part of its trunk is on our side. Its leaves is covered by little insects and it produced sticky drops to our garden every spring and summer, making the entire garden very dirty and our rear very dark. The neighbour refused to cut it which we don’t know what to do.

  3. We are about to build a side extension of 3m tall and 11m long. Despite paying the neighbour 2500 and his surveyor fee, he requested us to write down on the party wall agreement that we will waive all the cost and fees so he can use the party wall for free in the future (he has planning permission granted for side extension even earlier than us). Otherwise he will request us to use very expensive London brick to build the wall as it is exposed on his side.

We feel this is unfair and he is very greedy. He is a property manager who owns a number of buildings in London, while this is our first and only house, so we had no experience at all. We would like to be fair on the cost and to take back the land. Any advice or experience to share will be much appreciated!!

OP posts:
mumwon · 01/11/2020 19:24

www.realhomes.com/advice/party-wall-agreements-know-the-rules
You may have to get surveyor & pay for theirs
I wouldn't give into their blackmail

HelenD1999 · 01/11/2020 19:42

thanks, and yes, we have already paid for his surveyor.

OP posts:
HelenD1999 · 01/11/2020 23:16

I have contacted lawyer. Let the lawyer deal this extremely greedy business man. will update for useful knowledge/information if there is any at later stage.

OP posts:
BasiliskStare · 02/11/2020 05:28

well one thing is ( I believe ) if his tree is overhanging your property you are allowed to cut down branches etc as long as you give him back all the removed branches ( if they are sticky - this may give you some pleasure) Grin

Yes if you initiate the building works then you have to pay for the party wall surveyor , but , they act ( probably not explaining this well ) for the wall , not for either of the parties.

Just wondering if you appoint your party wall surveyor - ask him about what neighbour did . But if you have asked a lawyer who knows this area - that is probably good

I wish you well @HelenD1999

Loofah01 · 02/11/2020 09:27

Threat of solicitor for the wall moving, followed up by actual legal action.
You can trim any over hanging branches to the boundary line, don't think this extends to the trunk though.
You want the party wall agreement so you have to foot the bill. He can stipulate what he likes, it doesn't mean he'll get it. What use does he envisage for the future of this wall?
He sounds like a bit of a muppet :(

HelenD1999 · 02/11/2020 09:39

thanks dear, we have discussed everything with our surveyor.

the neighbour didn't serve any written notice to us when he built the garden wall, and he refused to move it back to the original boundary line unless if we pay for the cost of knock it down and rebuild it.

The tree is tricky, it's not just the branches, at least 70% of it has grown in our side, including some of the tree trunk. We literally have no light in the garden. The only way to remove it is it is dangerous to the building. it will be very close to the extension so i think it will be dangerous.

Now the neighbour threat us by not giving consent if we don't waive all of their fees for the party wall they will use in the future, which really makes us angry as it seems so unfair - as we are about to pay them 2500 for the loft conversion we think they should pay us back for the side party wall cost when they use it in the future.

Surveyor suggest to go for legal with them as it is not in the normal procedure anymore based on their behaviour, hence i contacted some lawyers, waiting for their response now.

OP posts:
Loofah01 · 02/11/2020 09:43

Talk to the council regarding the tree, it sounds as though it's leaning and you can argue there's a safety concern quite easily. They require him to remove it at his own cost (his tree afterall!)
Definitely legal route for the boundary. He's stolen your land and its pretty clear cut from your description, there is no reason for you to pay.

HelenD1999 · 02/11/2020 09:54

I don't know why i have the impression that the losing party in the court will need to pay for the entire legal fee. is that right? anyone ever dealt with court cases?

OP posts:
Loofah01 · 02/11/2020 10:27

It's at the judges discretion. The other party can counter claim but it's still the judges decision. Letter before action from a solicitor often does the trick.

goldierocks · 02/11/2020 11:45

Hello OP

Mine was a very different type of case (not related to property). Both sides usually pay their own costs, however it's possible for the 'winning' side to claim the costs from the 'loosing' side. I was awarded my court costs in full, which ran into the tens of thousands.

Unfortunately if the person has no means to pay, you won't get any money back (you have to pay the costs in the first instance, then claim them back). If they don't pay you can apply for a CCJ, then send high court bailiffs (sheriffs), but if they cannot find assets, the debt will be written off.

It's also best to name an individual rather than a limited company; if the company goes into administration or is dissolved, the person who owned the company is not obliged to pay the debt. I'm mentioning this as you say the neighbour is a property manager and so probably has a business. Obviously take professional legal advice if you take court action.

Regarding the boundary - have you checked your deeds, or is the 15cm encroachment based on the location of the original fence? Definitely check your deeds before going any further. If your neighbour did this, they may have discovered the fence was in the wrong place and errected their wall on the correct boundary.

If this is not the case and the old fence marked the correct boundary, I'd send a solicitor's letter to my neighbour with a copy of the deeds. I'd ask them to remove and reinstate their wall in the correct location.

With regards to your third point, I'm not sure this is unreasonable? You said "..despite paying (the neighbour's) survey fee" - this is standard practice when your proposed build affects a party wall, i.e. the surveyor costs - even your neighbour's - are down to you.

You say that your neighbour had planning permission for his extension first, is that right?

If your proposed extension is built right up to the boundary line, there might not be room for him to build a second wall solely on his side without affecting the dimensions of his original plans. If this is the case, it sounds like he's asking permission to use the same party wall for his extension.

If you don't want to allow this, he's asked for the wall to be built in London brick. I guess you have old houses and this would be in keeping?

If he can't build his own extension and your wall will be exposed on his side, I wouldn't want to be faced with breeze blocks either. It makes no sense for him to want the wall to be made with London bricks if he was going to build his own extension, as they would be covered up.

If your neighbour is keen to go ahead with his extension, sharing the party wall (that you build) might work, depending on his pre-existing plans. It would definitely save him money, so it would be nice if he made some sort of goodwill gesture.

It's not clear why you've paid your neighbour £2500 for your loft conversion. Was this figure agreed between you without any legal advice? What does this payment cover?

Rather than asking your neighbour for money (which I doubt you'd get), I'd ask for the tree to be completely removed and your garden made good. The cost of doing that could run into the hundreds. That would be an appropriate goodwill gesture IMHO.

Just an FYI - I removed my wonky (London brick) chimneys and used them to build my front wall. I researched places which sold the bricks in case I was short. Prices vary massively. At the time (2018) it was definitely possible get reclaimed London bricks for very reasonable prices.

Be careful - property disputes can drag on for years. The only winners are the lawyers. It would be much better if you can resolve matters directly between you, if possible. I know its an almost impossible challenge, but try to keep emotions out of it. Something being unfair does not necessarily mean it's against the law.

Good luck Flowers

HelenD1999 · 03/11/2020 09:32

thanks so much dear goldierocks for sharing!!

we have responded back to the surveyor:

  1. we agreed to pay for using loft wall that he has extended
  2. we disagree to waive off the extension wall

I knew that it is standard to pay for the party wall, that is why i say for the loft alone is fair. but he would us to pay and him not paying for a much more expensive wall then that is ridiculous. If he suggest to waive our fee to exchange for us waiving his fee then it seems more fair, although we wouldn't agree anyway as the extension wall is much more expensive.

Lawyer responded back about the legal cost. Even if we are successful it would be very unlikely that the neighbour would have to pay any of our legal fees or other costs back.This is due to that we would be seeking for action to be taken rather than requesting a monetary value, so the options for requesting legal fees to be paid by the other party is significantly different.

Now another problem is the 3m party wall was a joint application submitted by us for both the neighbour and us. We are asking the surveyor to confirm whether it means we have to build a joint wall. Anyway, what happened to us is the same for him, so it is greedy and strange that he is thinking of taking all the advantage from others, but not contributing anything on it.

Yes, his extension application was approved a year or two earlier than ours. he requested an extension.

Thanks for reminding us the old bricks that we can reused. I realised that the other day, and found that we are easy to be misled by others. actually it is not an issue at all. we probably need to buy some more new one, but it is fine.

Now we separate the three walls: the loft - we accepted so should be awarded. The neighbour actually asked for 3 hundred more than the 2 surveyors' recommended value, not a big deal but again feels disgusting.

the extension - we rejected and we don't mind building our own, will lost some space but not big deal at all.

the garden wall - will take legal action to get it back if he doesn't move it back. (wondering whether i can represent myself and initiate a court case or only lawyers can do so) The deed shows clearly that it is straight line from the main house, now clearly it is not. Surveyor reminded us that if that wall stays there for 20 years then it will automatically became his land! To be honest, before we are still trying to maintain relationship with the neighbour, in the hope that he will remove the tree. When he suggested us to remove the wall at our cost and share half of the rebuild fee and we were actually considering it

tree - thanks for Loofah01, i have filed a request to the council with photos showing the original garden wall bricks has started falling due to the tree's overgrown. Will see how it goes. The new one is ok because the entire wall is on our side.

thanks dear all for so much precious advice!!!

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