House that’s been underpinned 3 times

[KenDoddsDad]

We have found our dream house. We had a homebuyer’s survey carried out and the surveyor identified large diagonal cracks externally (quite narrow, but requires investigation), one of which has been mirrored internally. So as not to drip feed, here is a description of the property:

Large detached Victorian house on clay soil. Large old oaks 20m from property, yew trees 7m from property. Suspected cause of external cracking is root damage. Cost of property: £1.3m. We are hoping to live in this property for 20+ years.

Following our survey, we asked the seller for some more information. They have now supplied documentation which says the property was underpinned once in 1993, and twice in 2011. We are 6 weeks down the line and this is the first we have heard of it. We have not been told where the 2011 underpinning has been done (we have now asked for details).

The cracking on the outside indicates further underpinning may need to be carried out, but a structural engineer will confirm this within the next week. Current owner has not had the oak trees pruned in the time they have lived there, so it is believed that if a crown reduction is performed, this will help with the root damage.

Would we be mad to consider purchasing this property? Even if we manage to sort the subsidence, would we struggle to sell the property in years to come?

Don't buy it!

Sorry it would put me off buying unless the causes were determined and sorted. I wouldn't want to remove trees either as I bet they are lovely. If the trees do need work check for any TPOs. It's a tough one but for that budget you should have options.

I wouldn’t buy it!

That’s bad luck. I live in an underpinned property (Victorian foundations, clay soil, near a forest) which was underpinned 30 years ago and now solid as a rock. I’m confident the risks of further subsidence are low. I’m pretty fearless about underpinned properties and worry more about old ones on streets with clay soil that aren’t underpinned.

I’d be nervous about buying and later selling something with ongoing subsidence and if the issues are recurring so often. I think you need more info on what has previously caused the subsidence and what the remedies were (ie was house fully or partially underpinned, was the work signed off etc). You won’t get insurance while there are ongoing issues, the seller needs to make the claim.

Hi,
I would highly recommend walking away. The fact that you're only hearing of underpining suggests to me that they weren't going to tell you in the hope you wouldn't do a full survey.

Reducing the crown of a tree can help with the future growth but not well established growth. That said, in terms of trees, 20m is not exactly close by. I'd say most of London is within 20m of an oak tree.

Hence I feel you're not getting the whole story here.

You do get a few hysterics on here who won’t touch anything with even the slightest problem and they are often new build targets. But I would be wary of this one.

Really, NO. This is a bad buy, don't do it.

Underpinning once and no further issues would be fine but three times? I would walk away

@slipperywhensparticus

Underpinning once and no further issues would be fine but three times? I would walk away

Exactly what I was thinking! Why was it underpinned twice in one year, 2011?

Would you be able to get insurance on it? If so - how much would it cost?

My house was underpinned (and not declared by previous owners which is illegal) but it's fine now. If there's still movement that's the issue not historic underpinning. If you are serious about the property you need a structural engineering survey

Thank you all for taking the time to reply.

Yes, we are realistic that many properties (particularly of that age) are underpinned, and indeed, benefit from this fact.

We definitely need more information on the 2011 underpinning and we will definitely be getting a structural engineer to look at it.

The previous owners have never struggled to get it insured, but these newer cracks might affect this. The insurance is certainly more expensive than other properties, but we have factored an approximate figure into our costs.

We have just phoned the estate agent and they were shocked to hear about the underpinning. Previously the owner has not wanted to engage in direct contact with us (we were trying to negotiate offering for the curtains), but the estate agent has now requested a face to face meeting with them this morning which has just been confirmed.

It is likely that if you buy it with cracks already apparent a future insurance company won't cover them as you bought the property in that condition.
These faults need to be addressed before it is sold but personally even then I wouldn't buy it

Hi OP, looking at your username and description of the area.... are you looking to buy in a village N of Liverpool well known for woodland? If so, many of the trees need TPOs to even be touched. We have had an application in for over a year now and still waiting to receive the rubber stamp to trim some branches :(

The sellers have been disingenuous at best. I wouldn't trust them at all. I've lived in my dream house with flooding issues and it's not worth the stress (we weren't told and discovered through experience)

You need total clarity on the insurance situation before going anywhere near it.

@WinnieSandersonsCat no, we’re not, but the trees do have TPOs on them regardless! Sorry to hear it’s taken so long for your issues to be addressed. How frustrating. I have done thorough research on the TPO planning requests in the area we are in, and they do seem to be processed efficiently, but you just don’t know.

@helpmum2003 how very awful for you. How have your insurers dealt with that? Can you sue the previous owners for non disclosure, as I know you can if underpinning has been declared.

I think we are coming round to the idea that there is just too much risk involved. We’d be prepared to consider that risk if the sale price was considerably lower, but I doubt that’ll happen!

We're in the process of buying a house that was underpinned 30 years ago, no issues since.

I'd be weary of a house that had been underpinned three times and still has ongoing issues.

When looking for insurance we found most wouln't even insure us and specialist insurance was very expensive. We did find one that will insure if the underpinning was more than 10years ago at an reasonable price.

Good luck!

I think this sounds risky.

Cancel the surveyor next week. Three times underpinned. Probably needs yet more underpinning. Vendor has avoided mentioning said underpinning. Dodgy as hell. I'd bet the insurer doesn't know about the underpinning either.

And do you want to hassle and cost of applying for planning permission every time you get the trees trimmed?

Or go ahead with the survey and depending on what it says ask for a massive reduction to cover the possibility of further underpinning.

I am not easily put off but underpinning would! My DGM's house was underpinned once but that was due to the war. Underpinning more than that would make me worry about the foundations. Also could you get a mortgage on it? Do you have the money to get it underpinned again?

Virtually no one pays for underpinning themselves. It’s what house insurance is for. I would ask if this house is insurable though. If it is insured, the vendors should deal with this through their insurance. I wouldn’t take this on. It’s simply a problem they want rid of.

DH is a Structural Engineer and dealing with these problems is quite normal but several attempts at underpinning needs investigation. Is it three different areas of the house. Ask to see the Structural Engineers reports and specification for the work. What did they miss in 2011 so they had to go back? Unless you get very detailed responses, I would suggest their insurance deals with this. I fail to see what a face to face meeting would achieve. It’s evidence you want.

I heard an underpinned house will be stronger on that side than neighbouring houses, if the work has been done under the supervision of a structural engineer and signed-off properly.

Structural engineer said an underpinned house is solid. Engineered to withstand the previous pressures put on it, it essentially gives foundations to houses that have no foundations. Period houses have very little in the way of foundations. It was standard construction.
The problem is usually a lack of education and for anyone ready to walk away, there are still plenty willing to buy.

I wonder if the vendor has been honest with insurers? You mention that they've been able to insure it easily which (based on responses I've seen here) would suggest that isn't normally the case.

For them not to disclose the underpinning is suspect anyway. I'd walk away.