Ghost lines on ceilings?!

[RedKew]

I'm hoping someone out there will firstly have a clue what I'm referring to and secondly can help with a solution! We have recently viewed a period terraced house which is really nice but has a very strange situation going on with the bedroom ceilings. Basically there are vertical dark lines running across the ceilings in both bedrooms which would appear to line up with the joists in the loft. After soon googling i think they may be called ghost lines but I don't know what causes them and if these are serious problems and how expensive it would be to fix. I really want to put an offer in On Monday but am obviously very wary. Can anyone offer some insight please?

Our new place had this. We had a good look at the ceiling and there was no sign of damp on the plaster, joist or plasterboard. What we did notice was that the insolation did not touch the joist. There was actually quite a big gap between the insolation and the joists. So our theory is that the temperature difference might have caused the discolouration. The previous owners where quiet elderly so we expect they might have had the heating on a lot during winter.

You should be able to paint over it. Have a look at what the insolation is like above the bedrooms. If its only a single payer of insolation then you might want to add another. we have overboarded and replastered the ceilings but thats because we also had cracks.

Get a home buyers report not just a valuation, that should through up any problems, or ask a builder what they think?
I actually don't remember there being any builders on MN that I've seen (probably very wise! )
Piglet John might know?

Thank you dany 174 and allofthetings ! Sorry don't know how to link names. If that's the case, that's out my mind somewhat at ease , I think the next step will be to have a look in the loft and check out the insulation. I'm just concerned it's a roof problem realky.

Interestingly, these bedrooms also have cracks in the corners of ceilings and running down walks , so I wonder if this is part of the same problem?

Good point about home buyers survey - yes, will have to do this now.

Probably caused by movement in the building.

@MikeUniformMike

Probably caused by movement in the building.

Oh no! I hope not. That would be an entirely other thing to worry about.

Get a full survey. It's a period property. Some movement is not unusual.

We have this in one of our bedrooms and I thought it was caused by dust and road pollution seeping in through a gap in the roof but our builder said apparently in lots of period houses the ceilings aren't made using plasterboard, they are just paper, which is then skimmed and eventually, over time, the outline of the joists will appear. We're about to have ours sorted out with plasterboard!

@Longwhiskers14

We have this in one of our bedrooms and I thought it was caused by dust and road pollution seeping in through a gap in the roof but our builder said apparently in lots of period houses the ceilings aren't made using plasterboard, they are just paper, which is then skimmed and eventually, over time, the outline of the joists will appear. We're about to have ours sorted out with plasterboard!

Oh that's reassuring to hear! Hopefully that's the same issue here. I'm going to have a look at the roof space and check the joists too. Love period properties but not loving these anomolies!

it's dust particles sticking to the ceiling. The lines are because it sticks more to the colder surface (may currently be the joists). In the old days of uninsulated lofts, it used to stick more to the plaster between the joists because it was colder. Damp and condensation make it worse.

Apart from dust (dirt), marks will be much worse if there is cigarette smoke, or soot from candles or (rare now) an open fire.

The dirt may be very old. When you next decorate, rub it with a sponge and sugar soap. Dirt will come off, though it will spread in horrible smears. You can get it off by rubbing with a damp towel after the sugar soap, so it is clean enough to paint. Paint may peel off if it is applied to dirt, or the dirt may mix into the paint.

BTW cracks in the ceilings that run down the walls can happen if a badly-performed loft conversion or alteration has cut the original roof timbers and interfered with the structural integrity. This will be obvious to a surveyor who looks up there (valuation surveys are sometimes done without looking). It might also happen if a lightweight roof built for slates has been re-roofed with tiles, which are heavier, causing it to deform.

Or there might be some other cause.

Actual cracks in the ceiling of an old house are to be expected, and are often not structural. L&P ceilings are inclined to fall down, which is a nuisance and very dirty.

@PigletJohn

it's dust particles sticking to the ceiling. The lines are because it sticks more to the colder surface (may currently be the joists). In the old days of uninsulated lofts, it used to stick more to the plaster between the joists because it was colder. Damp and condensation make it worse.

Apart from dust (dirt), marks will be much worse if there is cigarette smoke, or soot from candles or (rare now) an open fire.

The dirt may be very old. When you next decorate, rub it with a sponge and sugar soap. Dirt will come off, though it will spread in horrible smears. You can get it off by rubbing with a damp towel after the sugar soap, so it is clean enough to paint. Paint may peel off if it is applied to dirt, or the dirt may mix into the paint.

Oh thanks so much for your input - I was hoping you'd reply, you've already been name checked for being the go to person for building stuff! This very much does sound like the case here, I think the loft is lacking adequate insulation - but I'm hoping to check this out for myself this week. Overall, it doesn't sound like too much of a problem.. The cracks in the other hand may be. There is no lift conversion but I don't know about age/quality / materials of the roof so this will need to be looked at.

Any other nuggets of advice would be much appreciated !

@PigletJohn

BTW cracks in the ceilings that run down the walls can happen if a badly-performed loft conversion or alteration has cut the original roof timbers and interfered with the structural integrity. This will be obvious to a surveyor who looks up there (valuation surveys are sometimes done without looking). It might also happen if a lightweight roof built for slates has been re-roofed with tiles, which are heavier, causing it to deform.

Or there might be some other cause.

Actual cracks in the ceiling of an old house are to be expected, and are often not structural. L&P ceilings are inclined to fall down, which is a nuisance and very dirty.

Sorry to be dense, but what is an l and p ceiling??

Hairline cracks often appear if the house has been replastered and the heating has been on high so the plaster has dried out too quickly

Lath
&
Plaster

thin strips of wood nailed to the joists from below, and thck plaster squooshed against them so it oozes up between and, when hardened, hold the weight of the plaster below. I have only seen it done with lime plaster and in houses prior to 1945.

After about a hundred years, the nails holding the wooden laths up are likely to have rusted away.

After standing through periods of wartime bombing, and teenage daughters slamming doors, the plaster "nibs" between the laths are likely to be broken off.

With the nibs and the nails gone, the plaster tends to crack and sag. It stays up through force of habit for a while. When it loses concentration, it falls down.

There are some ways of repairing and stabilising it, if you do it before it falls down. It is more successful if you have access from above (in a loft or by taking the floor up) so you can clean off the filth and broken nibs, and possibly add expanded metal lathing. It is not worth the effort if you have to pay someone else to do it and the house is not of historical interest.

@PigletJohn

Lath & Plaster

thin strips of wood nailed to the joists from below, and thck plaster squooshed against them so it oozes up between and, when hardened, hold the weight of the plaster below. I have only seen it done with lime plaster and in houses prior to 1945.

After about a hundred years, the nails holding the wooden laths up are likely to have rusted away.

After standing through periods of wartime bombing, and teenage daughters slamming doors, the plaster "nibs" between the laths are likely to be broken off.

With the nibs and the nails gone, the plaster tends to crack and sag. It stays up through force of habit for a while. When it loses concentration, it falls down.

There are some ways of repairing and stabilising it, if you do it before it falls down. It is more successful if you have access from above (in a loft or by taking the floor up) so you can clean off the filth and broken nibs, and possibly add expanded metal lathing. It is not worth the effort if you have to pay someone else to do it and the house is not of historical interest.

Ohhhhhhhh, thanks for clearing that up! I didn't see any sagging in the ceiling so that should be ok. Very useful stuff to know this is! Much appreciated..

It's circa 1900 property so there is probably going to be stuff wrong, just hopefully not expensive structural stuff. T he only other niggle is the cellar - no noticeable cracks, but one side was plaster bordered so wondering if they're trying to cover something up? There was a dehumidifier down there, not sure what that's about...

We have a dehumidifier in our cellar. Cellars get damp, and a dehumidifier stops that. I've lived in houses with cellars since 1992, and in all 4, the cellar got damp. Unless it's fully tanked, it will, as it's below ground level.

If the house is from the 1900s, it's 120 years old. There will be odd things if you are not used to it. Before moving back to UK, I lived in a house built in 1774. It had quirks, but was lovely. The worst house was built in the 1980s to rent out, just outside Brussels. That was a cold house; I lived in thermals and fleece in the winter.

plasterboard in a cellar will not cure damp.

You can usually keep a cellar moderately dry with lots of ventilation, blowing the water vapour away. If it evaporates and is ventilated away as fast as it permeates through the walls, that's enough. The heat absorbtion of the evaporation of water will also keep the cellar cool, which is an advantage for the storage of some beverages.

But if you put anything against a wall or floor, such as a cupboard, dartboard, poster, or tin trunk, that will block evaporation and ventilation, so that spot will get particularly damp.

You can often lift something off a concrete floor, such as a paint tin, and find there is a damp patch beneath it and the bottom of the tin is rusty (or wooden item is rotten).

If you apply waterproof coatings to the inside of the wall (tanking) it is liable to be pushed off when water pressure builds up behind it. Especially when the mortar and bricks are weak, crumbly and powdery.

modern practice for basements has moved away from tanking, and has a raised floor and an inner wall, in the sure and certain knowledge that damp will get into gap, and can be diverted to a drain or pump for removal, but the room inside the inner wall can be kept dry. There are special floor tiles made for this, with space under them.

The internal partition walls can be protected with plastic sheeting behind them, so that water only drains inside the cavity. There are some waterproof wall boarding systems that are corrugated to allow water to drain down the back.

The wet cavity has to be built with materials that cannot rust or rot. Usually plastic and stainless steel.

This has been an interesting thread as we have-what I now know to be!- ghost lines on the ceiling of one room (1870s build). We massively insulated the loft so I shall wonder about them no more.

I can also attest to lath and plaster being a bugger to clear up when your bath leaks through the ceiling.

When it loses concentration, it falls down.

Just one of the many reasons to love pigletjohn.

My friend's ceiling did develop cracks when she stored loads of stuff in the loft. The loft joists could take it, so she had to empty the loft out a bit. Worth remembering that they aren't designed to take weight.

If you have an old house, be really careful with lath and plaster.

We did up and old building, probably early Victorian, or earlier when I was growing up. Downstairs Dad removed tons of lath and plaster as he knocked down walls etc.
he got the most terrible eye infections that wouldn't clear up. The GP reckoned that the horse hair in the old plaster probably had harboured some nasty germs and he was suffering from some nasty Vistorian bug.
So wear eye protection and face masks.

@thegcatsmother

We have a dehumidifier in our cellar. Cellars get damp, and a dehumidifier stops that. I've lived in houses with cellars since 1992, and in all 4, the cellar got damp. Unless it's fully tanked, it will, as it's below ground level.

If the house is from the 1900s, it's 120 years old. There will be odd things if you are not used to it. Before moving back to UK, I lived in a house built in 1774. It had quirks, but was lovely. The worst house was built in the 1980s to rent out, just outside Brussels. That was a cold house; I lived in thermals and fleece in the winter.

Thanks for the heads up! Never had a cellar before but can understand now that damp may be an issue. Guess I'll have to get a dehumidifier! Ea did say full ranking costs 18k so that wouldn't be an option unfortunately

@PigletJohn

plasterboard in a cellar will not cure damp.

You can usually keep a cellar moderately dry with lots of ventilation, blowing the water vapour away. If it evaporates and is ventilated away as fast as it permeates through the walls, that's enough. The heat absorbtion of the evaporation of water will also keep the cellar cool, which is an advantage for the storage of some beverages.

But if you put anything against a wall or floor, such as a cupboard, dartboard, poster, or tin trunk, that will block evaporation and ventilation, so that spot will get particularly damp.

You can often lift something off a concrete floor, such as a paint tin, and find there is a damp patch beneath it and the bottom of the tin is rusty (or wooden item is rotten).

If you apply waterproof coatings to the inside of the wall (tanking) it is liable to be pushed off when water pressure builds up behind it. Especially when the mortar and bricks are weak, crumbly and powdery.

modern practice for basements has moved away from tanking, and has a raised floor and an inner wall, in the sure and certain knowledge that damp will get into gap, and can be diverted to a drain or pump for removal, but the room inside the inner wall can be kept dry. There are special floor tiles made for this, with space under them.

The internal partition walls can be protected with plastic sheeting behind them, so that water only drains inside the cavity. There are some waterproof wall boarding systems that are corrugated to allow water to drain down the back.

The wet cavity has to be built with materials that cannot rust or rot. Usually plastic and stainless steel.

Thanks for your response, sorry I've only just checked updated messages. You've given me a lot of options for the cellar , moving forward. The room within a room, who wouldve thought this was even an option! Amazing. Well, the offers gone in and been accepted now ( mainly on the advice of you wonderful posters!), So next step will be the structural survey, fingers crossed nothing too awful is flagged up

@steppemum

If you have an old house, be really careful with lath and plaster.

We did up and old building, probably early Victorian, or earlier when I was growing up. Downstairs Dad removed tons of lath and plaster as he knocked down walls etc.
he got the most terrible eye infections that wouldn't clear up. The GP reckoned that the horse hair in the old plaster probably had harboured some nasty germs and he was suffering from some nasty Vistorian bug.
So wear eye protection and face masks.

Ouch! Poor dad! The Victorians were marvellous inventive, horeshair for plaster?!. Goggles at the ready!

@BalanceGreen

This has been an interesting thread as we have-what I now know to be!- ghost lines on the ceiling of one room (1870s build). We massively insulated the loft so I shall wonder about them no more.

I can also attest to lath and plaster being a bugger to clear up when your bath leaks through the ceiling.

Haha! Glad my problem has helped with yours! Yes, full insulation seems to be the remedy here....