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New boiler or new hot water tank?

35 replies

zaffa · 20/07/2020 12:08

We have an old Potterton boiler, I was once told on here that they are very good and reliable. It's an old system with a hot water tank and a header tank in the loft.
The hot water tank is small though and now that we have a baby and DSS here we've noticed that there are a lot of occasions where it doesn't refill enough between baths and so someone ends up with a tepid bath. Made worse by our electric shower just giving up the ghost ...
We've been looking at the new green scheme from the government and thinking seriously about getting a combi boiler and taking out the tanks - which would give us more space in the bathroom when we come to redo it eventually, but we don't want to take out a boiler that really is that good and replace it with a modern one which (from experience of everything I have ever replaced it seems) may be not as well made.
The other option I suppose is to replace the hot water tank with a larger one but it could only really be longer not wider due to the space constraints.
The heating is also a bit rubbish, radiators never seem to get hot enough all over and seem luke warm most of the time. Is that likely to be the boiler or do we need to replace the actual radiators themselves - or will some sort of chemical blast through them clear them out? Bleeding did not help.
Thanks for any advice!

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zaffa · 20/07/2020 16:51

Bump...

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Palendrominca · 21/07/2020 16:56

If it were me I’d replace the potterton with a combi Worcester boiler. At some point the parts for the potterton will become obsolete and it will need replacing anyway, so you’re probably saving yourself the cost of a new hot water tank.

Ask the gas engineer who is looking at the boiler about the radiators, there could be a number of reasons why they’re not getting hot, so they’ll be best placed to advise.

PigletJohn · 21/07/2020 17:40

how many people do you have in your house, and how many bathrooms and showers?

A combi is not always the best answer. An old house may have insufficient water flow to run a bath in a tolerable time.

Do you know what model your boiler is?

if fully pumped (show us some photos of the pipes, pump, thermostat and timer around your boiler and hot water cylinder), a modern cylinder can reheat in 20 minutes. Modern practice is to have a bigger boiler that can run two baths or showers with the stored water.

How big is your cylinder, and how big is your hot water cylinder? What colour is it?

PigletJohn · 21/07/2020 17:41

i meant to say "how big is your airing cupboard... and your cylinder."

zaffa · 21/07/2020 22:42

@PigletJohn

how many people do you have in your house, and how many bathrooms and showers?

A combi is not always the best answer. An old house may have insufficient water flow to run a bath in a tolerable time.

Do you know what model your boiler is?

if fully pumped (show us some photos of the pipes, pump, thermostat and timer around your boiler and hot water cylinder), a modern cylinder can reheat in 20 minutes. Modern practice is to have a bigger boiler that can run two baths or showers with the stored water.

How big is your cylinder, and how big is your hot water cylinder? What colour is it?

Hi! We have a converted four bed but in reality it's a bottom heavy house with a lot of living space and three modest bedrooms upstairs. One bathroom and an electric shower over bath. We'd like to put in a downstairs bathroom with shower to replace the downstairs loo but that's a very long term plan at the moment. No plans for any more bathrooms upstairs. I can't see a model number on the boiler so I took a pic. I had a search for the last gas service paperwork when we bought the house but can't find it unfortunately. The cupboard the hot water cylinder is in is long and thin, I can measure it if that would help? I also can't see how to tell how big the cylinder is, but I've attached pics
New boiler or new hot water tank?
New boiler or new hot water tank?
New boiler or new hot water tank?
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zaffa · 21/07/2020 22:47

More pics :)
Oh and there are four of us, me, DH, DSS (11) half the time and my baby.
A lot of washing takes place with the baby and DSS which is why it's frustrating that the hot water doesn't seem to refill as quickly or efficiently as we would like. DSS currently has a bath when he gets home from school at around 3:30 and then baby baths at around six and sometimes the water doesn't reheat or the tank doesn't seem to refill as when we turn it on it turns to a trickle very fast (even though the hot water is set to on throughout this period). This is a recent thing as I'm sure previously we have been able to run two baths from the tank.

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FindingNeverland1 · 21/07/2020 23:15

We are getting rid of water tanks and replacing with combi boiler.
Partly as bits need replacing and we'd prefer to make space in the house.

MarieG10 · 22/07/2020 05:04

I've experienced both combi and conventional gas CH.. We are a family of four and no way would a combi work for us with teeenage kids who like baths and shows (pumped shower from the hot water tank).

What we find is that as the boiler capacity is good it heats the water so quickly that when someone is using a shower there is always water for the next.

You probably need advice about the whole system and boiler capacity. When we bought our house the boiler was matched capacity to the house with little spare...when replaced it made a huge difference as a larger capacity was installed.

PigletJohn · 22/07/2020 05:24

The boiler looks to me like a Potterton Profile which is a very excellent boiler. It is an older model, though very advanced for its time. If you have a gasman who knows what it is and how to maintain it, don't throw it away. If you have a gasman who recommends discarding it for a combi, find a new (possibly older) gasman.

The cylinder is yellow, so around 20 to 30 years old. A newer one will have better insulation and faster reheat.

PigletJohn · 22/07/2020 05:32

Read the label on the cylinder. Measure its height and diameter.

Look at the cold water tank in your loft. Verify that it has a close fitting plastic lid and is clean inside. It probably has a label and/or numbers moulded into the side

zaffa · 22/07/2020 06:34

Thank you all!
@PigletJohn yes the gasman has made reference to replacing it, but has also said there's nothing wrong with it.
It sounds then that the boiler isn't my problem really, the surrounding system is with an inefficient HW cylinder and probably also a lot of hunk in the radiators.
Could I ask - if we did one of those chemical cleanses of the radiators, are they very reliable at getting rid of the buildup (I suspect a lot of limescale as there is no filter anywhere) or do you get to a point where they are just a band aid and new radiators are needed? I'm hoping new pipe work itself isn't required!

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zaffa · 22/07/2020 06:37

*gunk. Sadly there are no hunks in my radiators (although I'm sure DH would insist there is one in the house Grin)

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PigletJohn · 22/07/2020 08:40

Have a look at the (small) feed and expansion tank in the loft. How deep is the water? How deep is the mud?

zaffa · 22/07/2020 08:49

That one will wait for my husband 😁 I did read the label on the cylinder though and see that it has a nominal capacity of 115l and my internet research indicates that is too little for what we want. I'm hoping the cylinders come in unusual shapes because the airing cupboard won't accommodate a wider one but there's lots of space to put in a taller one.
My knowledge on how the system works is rubbish - for the central heating does the boiler pull water from the expansion tank? I always thought it circulated the same water through the system and the expansion tank was for the hot water cylinder.
Could I also ask in your opinion, we have 11 radiators currently and ideally need at least another two added to the system to cover all rooms - is that within the boiler's capacity do you think? As well as running my (hopefully much larger) hot water tank?

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BarrelOfOtters · 22/07/2020 08:59

Is there anywhere else you could put the cylinder? We have an oil boiler Worcester and too small cylinder. We are thinking of a bigger tank and putting both in the garage or the utility. That means we can have a bigger cylinder and reclaim the space in the bathroom where it’s squeezed under the eaves.

zaffa · 22/07/2020 09:50

@BarrelOfOtters

Is there anywhere else you could put the cylinder? We have an oil boiler Worcester and too small cylinder. We are thinking of a bigger tank and putting both in the garage or the utility. That means we can have a bigger cylinder and reclaim the space in the bathroom where it’s squeezed under the eaves.
I didn't consider that at all! Are you finding it very expensive to move the hot water tank?
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PigletJohn · 22/07/2020 10:16

In your system the boiler heats water which is pumped, according to the timer and the room stat and the cylinder stat, around the radiators and the coil in the cylinder. This water does not mix with the tap water, it may be dirty and contain chemicals. Any loss through leaks or evaporation, or expansion of the water when it is heated, is handled by the small feed and expansion tank. The water may contain metal oxides which can form a soft mud or hard deposits, especially when it combines with limescale. There are chemicals and filters to treat these. If a blockage occurs this is harder to treat since the chemicals cannot flow down the pipes go reach it.

If it is not too bad, a simple DIY chemical clean and rinse may help. A powerflush is more effective and more expensive. It is always a good idea to fit a magnetic filter to trap circulating particles before they can cause a blockage. This is a job for a plumber or heating engineer (it is not a gas or an electric part).

A bath holds around 100 litres of water, so your cylinder is big enough, but it may be slow to reheat due to less efficient design or other defects such as piping or sludge. A modern cylinder can reheat in around 20 minutes but it is modern practice to fit bigger cylinders than can fun a shower an bath or two baths without needing to wait for a reheat.

A cold water tank in the loft should be big enough to fill at least one bath without running low, so taps should never slow to a trickle.

Cylinders can go cold, but cannot run empty, because the hot water comes out of the top.

A modern cylinder is quick enough when you consider the time to wallow, towel off, cut your toenails and brush your teeth before the next person runs their bath.

zaffa · 22/07/2020 10:18

Thank you @PigletJohn - so if the taps are running to a trickle from the hot water cylinder then that means the problem is with the tank in the loft, is that correct?

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PigletJohn · 22/07/2020 10:21

Is your cylinder 18" wide (450mm diameter?)

How tall could it go?

PigletJohn · 22/07/2020 10:22

Yes.

Get up there with your torch and tape measure.

zaffa · 23/07/2020 14:34

Hi @PigletJohn!
Well I think we have found the source of our water troubles.
DH went up into the loft today and found two tanks (covered by foam and an old duvet) that he says are really just plastic tubs. They have chipboard covers on them.
I've attached pics but am I right in saying this doesn't look right at all?
(First two are what we presume feeds the hot water, last one we presume is for CH)
He also said there was a bottle of descaled that expired in 2015.
I know this is our fault for not examining closer when we bought last year but this isn't what it should be is it? Should it not be proper tanks?
Seperately I conducted a test on the CH today as someone suggested there were currently too many radiators for the boiler (Profile 50E), nine radiators and two towel rails. I turned off the three added as part of various extensions and they each then heated up a lot better when those three weren't included. Is it likely then that if I wanted even more radiators the boiler wouldn't support them anyway?
Thanks!

New boiler or new hot water tank?
New boiler or new hot water tank?
New boiler or new hot water tank?
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zaffa · 23/07/2020 14:56

Oh and the tanks are 50x50 cm is he says

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PigletJohn · 23/07/2020 15:55

500mm x 500mm x 500mm is big enough for a feed and expansion tank but nowhere near big enough for a cold water tank (cistern) that is supposed to run a bath.

Water tanks are generally plastic now, and should have close-fitting lids to keep dirt and insects out, and the overflow is also screened now.

I think yours are overdue for a replacement. It's a fairly easy plumbers job, or an enthusiastic DIY handywoman like yourself. You don't need to pay gas engineer rates.

The new ones are likely to be quieter filling, as the fill valves will be new and probably a modern design.

The plastic tanks are flexible enough to squeeze into a loft, it might be that the previous person fitted little ones he could get through the loft hatch. A long, narrow one is called a "coffin tank." Screw down new pieces of 18mm ply across the joists so the tank is standing on a flat surface, or the plastic tank may deform or split under the weight of water.

This would be a convenient time to give the CH system a good clean and flush, because you can drain it down while changing the F&E tank, and will have all your plumbing tools to hand. Sentinel X400 is quite good at loosening the sludge so it washes out when you drain and flush. Normally you woulde circulate it through the radiators hot, but you can turn down the boiler and do it cold unless we get a spell of hot weather. You can circulate it for up to 4 weeks before it starts to lose its detergent quality and the dirt starts to settle again. have a system filter such as a Magnaclean fitted before you finish cleaning. Ask the plumber to show you how to empty the dirt out, it is no harder than emptying a hoover bag when you know how. At first it will need emptying weekly or monthly, but because it captures all the circulating particles, the system willl gradually become cleaner and once a year will do.

On final clean fill, add X100 which will reduce risk of future corrosion (it is not a cleaner) and X200 which will slowly dissolve the limescale deposits. It does not have to be drained out. You'll need one litre of each chemical. Around £16 each.

Here are some examples of tanks. I think 125litres is the smallest sensible size for a house with bath and shower. Mine is 220 litres (50 gallon).

Your Profile 50 is about 15kW, which is sufficient for an average house and cylinder with reasonable insulation.

You can measure your radiatrors and work out their output, but it might be in the region of 1200W each. A 1500W radiator very rarely runs at max power, except if you have been away in winter and the house fabric has got cold. Your radiators should have TRVs, of course, and should be balanced so that they all heat up at about the same speed (except the one in the room with the wall stat, which should be adjusted to heat up slowest)

Check that the electric immersion heater in your hot water cylinder is in good working order, and does not overheat the water, before starting the other plumbing work. In summer, an immersion heater is all you need, though in your case it will give a shallow bath. Leave it on all day and check that the hot tap is not scalding. This is very dangerous but easily repaired. Do not leave it on at night or unattended until you have checked this.

zaffa · 23/07/2020 16:50

Thank you @PigletJohn! But you over estimate my DIY skills - and DHs for that matter!
I think it's sensible to run a cleaner and have the filter fitted and we are definitely going to have the water tanks both replaced.
Could I ask - as the problem isn't with the hot water cylinder but it is old - is there any real benefit to replacing it? I know a new one would keep the water hotter for longer I suppose but I don't know in real terms how frequently you replace cylinders usually?
On another note I took your advice and found a lovely gas man who specialises I'm older boilers and is a big fan of the Potterton, and is within a reasonable distance. He assured me should anything go wrong with it he will be able to source parts and reiterated your advice not to get rid of it and what a reliable boiler he's found it to be, so it looks like it's definitely staying for now!

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PigletJohn · 23/07/2020 18:00

You can change the cylinder later if you want. The system you have got probably worked OK when it was new, so giving it a simple clean, and replacing both the loft tanks, is a reasonable first step. Do test the immersion heater first please. There have been some terrible accidents from old immersion heaters, and the cost to change the thermostat or element is trifling.

If the immersion heater is working, it doesn't matter if your boiler is out of action in summer, and is only an inconvenience in winter. This is one of the advantages of a cylinder system.

A chemical clean is an OK DIY job, it doesn't need any real plumbing, you have to find the drain cock at the lowest point of the system, put a hose pipe on it and run out some water at the beginning, then bale out the mud from the F&E and wipe it clean, add the cleaning chemical and refill so the fill water washes the cleaner down into the boiler and radiators, and circulate it for a few weeks. This might take you about an hour (because you have to bleed all the radiators).

Then a few weeks later, you drain it all out, refill with fresh water, circulate it, drain it out, bleed the radiators, and repeat until the drain water looks clean. This will take you the best part of a day. You can then (when you are sure) tip in the X100 and the X200 and give it the final fill. You must have the Magnaclean fitted at some point prior to final fill. Around the start of your cleaning process is suitable. You will be amazed and delighted when you empty the dirt out of it. It's as gratifying as when you hire a carpet shampooer and look at all the filth in the waste tank that used to be in your carpets.

At greater cost, you can have a powerclean, which will cost a lot more and do a more thorough job. But unless you earn a thousand pounds a day, a DIY chemical clean is worth doing. And will leave you more confident in your abilities.

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