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Are prices shooting up where you are?

618 replies

Focusanddetermination · 13/07/2020 21:47

Just that really. I'm in a small Midlands town, have a high amount of activity and prices shooting up in the past few weeks even.

I thought people would be more hesitant with a looming recession, but it's almost the opposite.

OP posts:
Greenhats10 · 16/07/2020 12:17

the other point is jobs

As @HannahStern has noted working etc are dropping - so basically people are also placing their bets on their job being there in 18months time. Now I used to work in something that was considered a safe sector - but it has taken a massive hit. I have a job now - but will I have it by Sept 2021? No idea. There will clearly be huge redundancies all around me - will it be me?? I hope ont. But getting a mortgage even at a reduced rate next year with only one family income really is going to be a lot tougher. Whole sectors will be shedding staff and not just low paid /low qualification jobs - and no one knows if it will be them in 18months. But getting another job when sectors are shrinking will be really tough so we are potentially looking at long term unemployment for professional people and in the case of property it means they will never get a mortgage and end up stuck paying rent

thequantofmontecarlo · 16/07/2020 12:20

@Mildura

And this is exactly why thinking "falling house prices will make the market completely freeze up" is a fallacy

It won't completely freeze up, but it is likely that a fewer number of homes will be sold.

That's just common sense, and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded Wink

If 10% of the 3 million people expected to made redundant have to sell their property (conservative estimate based on current modelling), that's 300,000 extra homes on the market. Let's assume this happens evenly over a 6 month period, that's 50,000 homes per month.

The average number of sales per month (pre-Covid) is 65,000. This influx of homes represents 77% of the pre-recession volumes and that's not including the brave folks who want to sell anyway irrespective of house prices (as amply demonstrated earlier in the thread) so not really that much "fewer".

#notmagicbutmaths

thequantofmontecarlo · 16/07/2020 12:22

@Smallgoon

Not every move is about a massive step up the ladder. Not every decision boils down to the investment value. The relatively small potential extra loss is more than offset by the improved quality of life.

Agree with this 100%. A concept which appears to be alien to a fair few MN'ers.

It's funny how people who take steps to protect their finances tend to have higher quality of life. I wonder if there's a correlation Wink
Bells3032 · 16/07/2020 12:22

It doesn't freeze up the market when prices fall. in some cases it'll give a short term boost as people moving up want to sell theirs and move up and the reduction between what they want to buy price is bigger than the loss they'd make on their own property. Plus reduced stamp duty (even without the cut) due to the reduced price.

thequantofmontecarlo · 16/07/2020 12:26

@Greenhats10

the other point is jobs

As @HannahStern has noted working etc are dropping - so basically people are also placing their bets on their job being there in 18months time. Now I used to work in something that was considered a safe sector - but it has taken a massive hit. I have a job now - but will I have it by Sept 2021? No idea. There will clearly be huge redundancies all around me - will it be me?? I hope ont. But getting a mortgage even at a reduced rate next year with only one family income really is going to be a lot tougher. Whole sectors will be shedding staff and not just low paid /low qualification jobs - and no one knows if it will be them in 18months. But getting another job when sectors are shrinking will be really tough so we are potentially looking at long term unemployment for professional people and in the case of property it means they will never get a mortgage and end up stuck paying rent

So your response to this jobs uncertainty is to take the biggest loan you possibly can now?

When I started out in banking a many years ago, an MD told me that the difference between rich and poor people quite simply boils down to the financial choices they make and their attitude towards money. I thought he was an a**hole for saying that as I strongly believe luck plays a significant role but my experiences and reading the comments on this thread, I honestly wonder if he had a point.

Mildura · 16/07/2020 12:45

#notmagicbutmaths

A lot of assumptions in there. And I think your figures for monthly transactions are a bit on the low side. Annual completions across the UK have been fairly steady at about 1.1 - 1.2m for a few years now.

#stillaguess

ChavvySexPond · 16/07/2020 12:47

I know people who are cashing out and downsizing before the end of furlough, covid recession and 2021 Brexit chaos double whammy knocks house prices down significantly and wiped out a chunk of their investment. That I understand.

However, I think taking on a big loan now is a very unwise gamble. We know there's going to be massive unemployment and economic chaos in a few months. It seems crazy to me.

Greenhats10 · 16/07/2020 13:01

@thequantofmontecarlo
the difference often (esp. in the UK) is family money plus stability and increasingly which sector you work in....maths says if you have family income of 100k today you can afford to borrow 400k but if one of you loses a job come March then you might not even be able to get more than 200k. You can probably hold on to paying your mortgage circa 1200 but if you cant get a mortgage at all or 200k still dont get you a family home you're out of the system.

taking the biggest loan is bad but if you get sacked in 18months time and you are middle age - you won't get on the property ladder or get stuck in an unsuitable property

Greenhats10 · 16/07/2020 13:02

a major question now is will you get one of those unemployed and in which case can you afford a mortgage or higher rent. higher rent is probably unwise

Nanalisa60 · 16/07/2020 13:08

In the area I live in anything up to 250k going in a matter of days especially if it needs no work and has a garden and is basically a turn key ready property. The top half of the market is not moving as fast. I know a few people who have decided to sell and then are going to wait till nearer Christmas or next year to buy again. As they think this might be a dead cat bounce

StatisticallyChallenged · 16/07/2020 13:17

It's funny how people who take steps to protect their finances tend to have higher quality of life. I wonder if there's a correlation wink

There's a wide range between "only making the financially optimal decision regardless of emotions or family need" and "who cares about money"

Residential property is not just an investment, it's a home. Is quality of life really going to be higher for a family which, say, doesn't have enough space, no outdoor space, and means the kids end up starting school in a crappy catchment - but the mortgage is (to use your example) 7% lower?

You're assuming that people who want to move just now regardless haven't done their sums rather than that they have and concluded it's still the right decision for them.

serenada · 16/07/2020 15:16

that was me @smallgoon

The problem is I can only afford that price bracket (max mortgage available on my salary)

Desiringonlychild · 16/07/2020 16:27

@thequantofmontecarlo I think your perspective is largely based on the fact that the property you are aiming for, a house in Finchley Central that now costs £800k. My DH grew up around that area and it is now walking distance to where I bought so I am familiar with the area. It never used to be an expensive area at all and was considered quite ordinary. Therefore you are right to expect prices would go down, given that it is only that expensive due to the London property price boom in the last 10 years.

That isn't true for all areas.. Less credit does mean lower property prices but i can imagine a lot of BTL landlords have been waiting a long time for this and would have cash to spend on lower value properties. Not family houses in Finchley though.

TheGuruishere · 16/07/2020 16:48

@thequantofmontecarlo

Just stop, you are embarrassing yourself now, with your obviously, vested interest in a house price fall.

As others have pointed out, buying a home isn't just a investment, you should really be aiming your advice at investors. Even then, most would probably not take it, due to the history and nature of the housing market.

You are attempting to predict the bottom, many people try in various other markets, only to overlook some future change. Then, it's all to late, they've lost their money.

The advice your giving here, which you hold with out right conviction, is dangerous.

You seem to think, that people are acting illogical by buying now, when they could sell and then rent... People who are selling, have done their maths and are changing their finances and property to suite. Hence the stamp duty removal, as a gift from Sunak, to make this process easier.

Renting, is not a good idea, when it's often 50% higher than mortgages. Then you get evicted and the process which follows.

10 years of renting, is real lost money, wether a house fluctuates in price, around 10-30%, over that time, eventually the repayments will come to an end. The renter, will continue to pay forever... lets not forget, houses have always increased in value, due to the increase in money supply and as you've seen lately, theres alot more money being pumped into the system.

You also have no control over new measures Sunak and BOE might introduce, if rates go negative, to -3% where realistically, they may go.

I'll warn you also, becareful because following 2008, many held out expecting the market to correct, it never did.... HTB was introduced and ever cheaper credit.

Now, if interest rates go negative, those who have bought now, will be able to sell the house for much more. Those who hold out will have to pay much more, which could result in them no longer being able to afford the property, they can now.

It's also possible, that we see other measures to relieve pressure on mortgage holders and further support for FTBs...

You seem desperate to convince others of your advice, calling others fools... Mystic Meg, oh please tell me the future of Tesla and when to place my sell order for the correction, so I can become rich.

It's all speculation, an you don't know what will happen and what the powers to be will do.

ChocoTrio · 16/07/2020 17:20

Plots on my new build development are selling very fast. It is a sought after area, in fairness. However, a lot of people from London are buying - commutable and offers detached homes with gardens (albeit, small gardens - annoying thing about new builds tbh!).

I agree with whoever said: "Not every move is about a massive step up the ladder. Not every decision boils down to the investment value. The relatively small potential extra loss is more than offset by the improved quality of life."

A lot of movement is in response to covid 19 highlighting shortfalls in people's living situation and changing the housing priorities. People want gardens now and more space. Some can get that for the same price as their existing home just by changing to a cheaper area.

StatisticallyChallenged · 16/07/2020 17:31

A lot of movement is in response to covid 19 highlighting shortfalls in people's living situation and changing the housing priorities. People want gardens now and more space. Some can get that for the same price as their existing home just by changing to a cheaper area.

It was me who had made the comment you quoted before this, and your point here is us in a nutshell. Our house worked ok with me out at work full time, DH mostly out at work (self employed), eldest at school, youngest out with DH or our nanny a lot. Roll forward to covid and there's 4 of us in here all the time, no outdoor space, nowhere to get peace to work...even the pets are pissed off! My job is likely to become PT WFH so this isn't a temporary issue, DH is likely to be WFH more, not so easy to just take the littlest out to places. Our barely big enough city pad just isn't cutting it any more. We'd always prioritised being in the heart of everything and close to work for no commute, but everything being closed made us realise we didn't miss it really and that we should prioritise other things.

thequantofmontecarlo · 16/07/2020 17:46

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Lightscribe · 16/07/2020 18:39

[quote TheGuruishere]@thequantofmontecarlo

Just stop, you are embarrassing yourself now, with your obviously, vested interest in a house price fall.

As others have pointed out, buying a home isn't just a investment, you should really be aiming your advice at investors. Even then, most would probably not take it, due to the history and nature of the housing market.

You are attempting to predict the bottom, many people try in various other markets, only to overlook some future change. Then, it's all to late, they've lost their money.

The advice your giving here, which you hold with out right conviction, is dangerous.

You seem to think, that people are acting illogical by buying now, when they could sell and then rent... People who are selling, have done their maths and are changing their finances and property to suite. Hence the stamp duty removal, as a gift from Sunak, to make this process easier.

Renting, is not a good idea, when it's often 50% higher than mortgages. Then you get evicted and the process which follows.

10 years of renting, is real lost money, wether a house fluctuates in price, around 10-30%, over that time, eventually the repayments will come to an end. The renter, will continue to pay forever... lets not forget, houses have always increased in value, due to the increase in money supply and as you've seen lately, theres alot more money being pumped into the system.

You also have no control over new measures Sunak and BOE might introduce, if rates go negative, to -3% where realistically, they may go.

I'll warn you also, becareful because following 2008, many held out expecting the market to correct, it never did.... HTB was introduced and ever cheaper credit.

Now, if interest rates go negative, those who have bought now, will be able to sell the house for much more. Those who hold out will have to pay much more, which could result in them no longer being able to afford the property, they can now.

It's also possible, that we see other measures to relieve pressure on mortgage holders and further support for FTBs...

You seem desperate to convince others of your advice, calling others fools... Mystic Meg, oh please tell me the future of Tesla and when to place my sell order for the correction, so I can become rich.

It's all speculation, an you don't know what will happen and what the powers to be will do.[/quote]
@TheGuruishere

Still not taking in the wider economic picture. You are still referencing whats happened in the last decade. Recession in the 1990's and the GFC in 2008 both resulted in a drop in house prices. Both resulted with people in negative equity and this economic situation will be far greater.

It's the banks that control house prices in their willingness to lend not Sunak. If the BoE reduces interest rates to -3% do you really think the banks will follow and pay you to take out a mortgage? Banks are there to make profit by lending and other products and provide a return in dividends to investors.

That's the difference between 2008 to now. Interest rates were cut from 5% to 0.5% which enabled room for maneuver as well as QE printed money flowing into assets. There no way the government would be able to subsidise everyone's mortgages without currency being inflated to toilet paper.

It's not speculation, the economic impact of this will become very real, only those being paid by the government to drink wine and sun themselves in the garden recently don't realise that yet.

It is certainly not a time to over-leverage yourself if you are uncertain of your future job prospects and ability to repay debt.

After this initial period of deflation (economy restricting) the government will want austerity/tax rises and to deflate away the debt with inflation.

This isn't crystal ball gazing it's economic fact. Then the government has to actually RAISE interest rates to avoid the currency becoming worthless. Imagine servicing a mortgage with interest rates at even 5% let alone 10%+. Many in the 90's handed their keys back.

So if you are a cash buyer and aim to live in a forever house, then knock yourself out and buy now. Over a lifetime in a home it doesn't matter. If your aiming to take on eye watering debt, then you'll maybe want to re-assess unless you can fix now for 10+ years and overpay it off in that time.

This current economic shitstorm was coming regardless. COVID was only a catalyst which has fast forwarded the inevitable. The US treasury yield curves inverted last year which predates EVERY recession.

P.S Place sell order of Tesla now. Bigger market cap than Toyota yet hardly produces any cars, that isn't sustainable. Big drop in that and the ridiculous price ratio of the FAANGs to come once the economic impact is realised.

I'm in Gold/Silver and precious metal miners and doing very well and plenty more to come.

Greenhats10 · 16/07/2020 18:43

@thequantofmontecarlo - sorry but you are also a tad ideological. And not always correct - our two-bed flat in Zone 1 is 2k per month pretty standard I would say.....our mortgage on a two-bed in say Highgate would be around 1.1k per month...so no mortgage repayments are not the same as rent.Not in our case...in yours yes because you have a small deposit but we have a large one and dont need a big place.....

so in our case...yes am debating whether carrying on paying 2k for another year in a situation in which I could lose my job by next Sept in my perfectly professional job and have school catchments to worry about by then is better or worse than paying 1.1k for a two bed in the place I want to live in and can probably stay in over the long term.....

thequantofmontecarlo · 16/07/2020 18:44

@Lightscribe P.S Place sell order of Tesla now. Bigger market cap than Toyota yet hardly produces any cars, that isn't sustainable. Big drop in that and the ridiculous price ratio of the FAANGs to come once the economic impact is realised.

Nooooo! Don't give away good investment advice for free that too to the all knowing and seeing Guru! I'd love for @TheGuruishere to put all their savings in Tesla since it can only go up forever HAHAHA!

thequantofmontecarlo · 16/07/2020 18:49

@Greenhats10 sorry but you are also a tad ideological. And not always correct - our two-bed flat in Zone 1 is 2k per month pretty standard I would say.....our mortgage on a two-bed in say Highgate would be around 1.1k per month...so no mortgage repayments are not the same as rent.
I don't know what to say... can't you see the flaw in your argument? You've just compared the cost of rent in zone 1 to mortgage in zone 3.

FurierTransform · 16/07/2020 18:58

You can try to endlessly analyse the market, try to predict what will happen, look at specific circumstances that support your view, but in the end it will likely just depress you & give you anxiety.

For the average person buying a house to live in, the old adage remains true - There's no time like the present. If you like it & can afford it, buy it now, live in it, be happy.

I've recently exchanged on a house in the SE (1hr10min total commute to Waterloo) , for 18% below it's original marketed price. Does that mean the market has already crashed? Not necessarily...

thequantofmontecarlo presents a fair analysis of the wider economic situation but their conclusions are completely driven by the unique market they are looking to enter.
If I were a FTB looking at an 800k+ Z1/2/3 London property there's no way i'd be looking to buy now, but there's no way i'd have been looking for the past 2 years or indeed the next 3 either - the prices of such properties have been in decline for years & thanks to COVID high-value city living is dead. The era of the suburbs is upon us.

Greenhats10 · 16/07/2020 19:12

@thequantofmontecarlo do you think that a nice two bed flat at 80m2 in highgate in school catchment areas is much less than 2k?

Desiringonlychild · 16/07/2020 19:21

@thequantofmontecarlo my mortgage for a 2 bed flat in East Finchley is £1020. The rent for the same 2 bed flat tends to be between £1400-1500. Even with service charges, my mortgage is still cheaper.

Thats the main reason why I bought last year. Cos if you are renting a flat in London for a couple , you wouldn't be paying less than £1k. at least now with my flat, i have the extra room for a child and the school catchment. Should I have waited? Well it would certainly have made more economic sense but I would have had to spend lockdown in my MIL's house and that would have been cramped.I think a lot of people do prioritize comfort when buying property and anyone buying now is buying for their own comfort, which is a choice.

Greenhats10 · 16/07/2020 19:46

@Desiringonlychild - exactly. In our case - our goal is to have solid savings to cover any redundancies and be able to afford our mortgage plus everything else on one salary in case things go wrong.

The problem for some people is that they don't have time....18months is a long time depending on your reasons for moving and your age. If we could predict that in 18months prices will drop by 100k but interest rates won't go up by so much as to make borrowing say 300k too much - then fine. But what if you lose your job? What happens then if your rent is now too high and getting a mortgage is too hard?

Chances are that at least a couple of people on this thread will lose their job in 18months time - do you know if it wont be you (and am not talking about low skilled jobs - I have four degrees from all top unis - and am in a professional field but even I wouldn't place a bet on what happens next)? Then what? If you are a couple perhaps you could have afforded your mortgage on a 10year fixed term but the bank won't lend on your one salary even if you can somehow make it work in practice. Then you're stuck renting (when you can't afford it) with a kid for .....ever....??

After a certain age - and in some sectors, unemployment can mean forever......when whole sectors shrink - middle-aged people won't automatically just get another job anytime soon. Retraining takes time money and a lose of rank and salary.....

Again if you are a young FTB with 10-15& deposit and have no pressing need to move with a secure (ish) job and no dependents sure it makes sense to wait.

But what if you are not?