flat v house

[Greenhats10]

FTB here and would love to get MNetters advice on our dilemma. We are FTB with a toddler and are currently looking to buy our first property in London. Just started looking but already found a nice two-bed house in an okish area - primaries fine, secondary terrible (would have to move and its really terrible), longish commute - this week we also saw a really nice two-bed flat in a great area with an amazing primary and secondary school and a much easier commute. They are priced almost the same - but now we are really confused about what to do in this market.

Do we go for the house for now but know that we will have to move in say six years time to a completely different area and uprooting everyone or go for the flat where we could stay for much longer (it's really big and the schools are great). I know that everyone always says house over flat but with the looming recession we are just totally confused. Plus my partner is European and totally loves flats - his dream home would be a flat in one of the mansion blocks by Marylebone rather than a detached house. Any advice??

I would not base on anywhere I wanted to move based on senior schools when I have a toddler, base it on the primary and also how long the head teacher has been there.

I also know the house area. Young families seem very happy with it. Perhaps you could change jobs OP?

I’ve recently moved from Sydenham after 5 years there. Forest Hill/ Sydenham are lovely and great family areas. I would definitely recommend living there.

@Greenhats10
I'm in Ally Pally. Is the flat a purpose built Edwardian maisonette? If so that's like my flat. They're great properties, built to last and much nicer than a block, especially because of the garden.

I like the area and it's popular with families. I don't have kids but as far as I know Rhodes Ave primary and APS which are themmlocal schools have good reputations.

Plenty of parks and open spaces for the kids.

The area's lovely, though Wood Green is a bit rough round the edges.

The only slight downside with my flat is the lease is a bit of a mess, in brief the freeholder we had when we moved her in the mid 90s died soon after and we've not been approached about the ground rent since. We originally bought it under shared ownership-at the time you could get shared ownership on open market properties. When we bought out the housing association this came up and the solicitor managed to track them down. They made a fuss of the unpaid ground rent but it was pointed out that as we didn't know who they were and hadn't approached us, they didn't have a leg to stand on. That was 8 years ago, and they still haven't contacted us about it directly, so it's been unpaid for 20 years. The solicitor said that we can only be liable for up to 6 years and they need to approach us which they still havent done. It needs extending definitely if we were to move.

Oh the only other problem with the flats are that the second bedroom is small which maybe an issue if you were to have more kids. I've noticed a lot of people with the upstairs flats extend into the roof but obviously not an option for the ground floor flats.

Agree, about flats causing concern about the length of lease, ground rent, maintenance charges. If it is leasehold, then be beware of how quickly years go by. A short lease is going to be less easy to sell and yet you are still stuck with the mortgage.

@Smallgoon I’d also add to @Elbels list with Babur, Mamma Dough and Dondé

I can’t remember the name but also the deli a few doors down from Donde in Honor Oak for the most amazing sourdough, sausage rolls and cakes

Good point regarding noise - I havent really lived in many flats - how bad is the noise issue?

We currently live in a ground floor flat and the noise isn’t bad at all usually. Our neighbours above do have a young family though and the kids running around does get a bit tiresome at times.

The only other issue is that because we’re ground floor with flats above and on both sides, if anyone plays music loudly late at night we can always hear it. It’s never been a problem until a new neighbour moved in recently and we’ve had a few week days of music being played midnight to 7am!!

@Turnedouttoes - 12-7 sounds terrible. What did you end up doing? DH is swiss and thats usually quickly dealt with where he comes from, but in London?

With a toddler, we've only looked at ground floor flats precisely so as not to annoy any future neighbours. Am more concerned about us annoying other people than the other way around ;-)

@Greenhats10 I bought a 2 bed flat in East Finchley so quite near Ally Pally. I would go for the flat, I am considering private but would never live anywhere that doesn't have good state schools, because firstly any private school worth paying money for is highly selective and there is no guarantee a child would get in. Secondly, you never know when your financial situation would change. if your only option is state, it makes sense to live near the best state schools you know. Its a long way away, but Alexandra Park School has become really popular and I really don't think that would change.

Your parents may not understand the obsession with schools as in the past, it probably wasn't that important as the job market wasn't as competitive and wages actually grew. Nowadays, its different. The gap between rich and poor is only going to grow.

I'd definitely go for the flat. It would depend how much the service charge and ground rent are though, as they can be thousands.

there is no service charge/ground rent and its a share of freehold so other than the fact that it's a flat its sort of the same as with a house.

Personally i love both ally pally and forest hill areas - i love the views and its like looking at london from opposite vantage points and the horniman museum is amazing especially with a small kid. but the prospect of having two changes in my commute plus uprooting everyone for secondary schools seems a bit rubbish. but i guess that lots of people move around for secondaries - both DH and I grew up in the same house/area we were born in so the prospect of having to change friends etc seems hard.

Go for the house. We had a flat and the service charges just got stupid in the end.

Are you planning on staying in your current jobs for the long term?
We moved to our current property between Bristol and Bath when I was working in Bath and DH was working locally to home. Redundancy and a new job for my DH means he now has a 20 mile commute around the ring road to another satellite town, and I commute to central Bristol. The only thing (apart from friends) that keeps us here is my son's school.

@Greenhats10 I had a neighbour who has been trying to move for the past 5 years. He has the money, had an interested buyer but every time he tried to move, the chain broke down. In the end, he gave up and renovated his current home.

Unfortunately in our crap system, there is no guarantee anyone can move at the time they want. when you sell your first home, you would be in a chain and it just takes 1 person to pull out for the entire chain to break down which can happen quite often. This then delays the whole process and you may have to look for a new buyer all over again as your previous buyer who is likely to be a chain free first time buyer may look for another property which is chain free. The only way you can circumvent that is to sell your house and rent until you find a suitable property which I guess you don't want to do due to disruption.

@Desiringonlychild yes and that is a little bit my concern when it comes to moving for secondary schools. great if you sell quickly but to ensure that you are in place early enough to apply for a secondary school - i have no idea when we would have to put our own house on the market. so effectively we are only looking at 5-6 years in a 'house' before we're off again.

in the flat - we will probably have to move at some point, but since the schools are ok then we could take our time and move eventually but without the time pressure.

my parents think we're just not aspirational and ambitious enough and would really like us to get a four bed semi like them. i am trying to keep them out of this house move but my mother does love a nosey

@Greenhats10 I don't know many people who get four bed semis in London as their first property. Particularly not in good areas. Unless maybe if they are much older and just never bought in their younger years. You can get a 4 bed semi in a cheaper area outside London but imho, that is not very useful as there is always somewhere which is cheaper. I mean there are studio flats in Central London that are twice the price of my london flat, does that mean the people who own them and live in them are less successful than me?

my MIL who bought in the 80s had a 1 bed flat in hendon as her first property . She eventually moved and got a 4 bed terraced. In a sense, we are doing better than her at that age cos we have a 2 bed flat in east finchley (which is a similar and slightly more expensive area). Even during her time, the house was double the price of the flat, Except in those times, the flat was 50k and the house was 100K. Now the flat is 400K and the house is 800K.

@Greenhats10 my parents were the same, they wanted me to buy a 2 bed house in East Finchley that was freehold, and were convinced that it would drop from 600k to 400K. Actually what happened is that they aren't on the market anymore and the ones that are had loft conversions done and now are asking for 850K.

And my parents were dead against moving out of zone 3 London because to them, zone 3 was already too far out. Ideally should be in zone 1-2.

@Desiringonlychild - there has been one house for sale as a two-bed for 600......and none since.

i would love for our parents to but out...but they never do ;-)

I live not too far away- near CP park- and the area is fantastic for families with kids- loads of amenities, brilliant transport and shed loads of green space. Good pubs. We moved from the same borough you're looking in in N London (at the less fancy end) and we did like it very much too.

On schools- there is a very live discussion about the lack of secondaries in the Sydenham/Penge area, so a bit further south but all over the areas really especially for boys. FH boys seems to be having a bit of a hard time at the moment but that could rapidly change- I know people were happy until very recently. We've got girls so better served. Would you be close enough to the E Dulwich Harris? That's a boys' school, or there is Kingsdale in Sydenham (entry is a lottery system though). But really schools change so rapidly...

@Breadandroses1 I know what is it about boys secondary provision around there....i mean even the harris' ones are not all that great. if we could move the charter schools to forest hill that would be ideal ;-) And its crazy to think that Kingsdale has a lottery system.

Guess if it wasnt for the schools (and maybe the commute) then am totally sold on Forest hill/HOP area

problem with the flats are that the second bedroom is small

Depends on the flat
Layout
Some will have 2x double some won't

Unless you earning 100s of k or can afford to spend 800k plus probably a lot more you won't get a 3 or 4 bed in the area you want in N London

There is nothing wrong with a garden flat .

We recently moved out of the FH area precisely for the reason of lack of good boys' secondaries.
Which meant that we had to uproot our kids who were very settled at their primary there. And I was very settled with lots of good friends.
In hindsight i think we should have moved to an area with good secondaries in the first place, so that we could have avoided the big upheaval that we have now. Even if this would have meant moving further out.
But no way would I have moved into a flat for the longer term! When you have a family you really need a house! You need to store things - we have bikes, a car, camping gear, sledges, gardening bits, garden toys, other toys etc etc.
It probably feels manageable now with a toddler, but wait until he is older, maybe even throw another sibling in the mix.
What about if you work from home in a 2 bedroom flat?
I get your DH because I am also European. But even a sibling of mine back home is fed up of living in a flat in a major city and is longing for a house of their own.
I would probably look at areas further out than your comfort zone with nice housing stock, good transport links and good schools.

@Puffthemagicdragongoestobed my flat has a loft. OP's flat sounds like a garden flat. maybe she could build a shed in the garden

The thing is that the area you are talking about with good housing stock, transport links and good schools is somewhere outside of London. Maybe some thing like Orpington. But would be far out and OP is a teacher so I don't think there are a lot of wfh opportunities for her.

I am glad i got a flat mainly because my MIL is nearby for childcare. the problem with the commute is that unless your parents are nearby, you are relying on childcare. 1 out of 4 childcare providers are in danger of going bust. As women, we rely on private childcare at our peril. Higher population density usually means more options- if all the childcare centres in a London borough close down, its no biggie just go to the options around next station?

And of course longer commute means longer hours of childcare needed. I think there are a lot of perks to living further out esp with regards to lifestyle but for a family, it definitely makes earning power more precarious. As its usually the woman who has to give up the job if the childcare doesn't work out.