*Buying a House and Loft Conversion Issue-Help Please*

[Saimaji]

Hi Everyone,

I am going to buy a house in Manchester. I made an offer which is already accepted and now I have passed the details to the conveyancer for the searches etc etc. I have not made any payment yet for anything.

Now I just found this house was advertised as three bedrooms and third bedroom is a loft conversion. In the subject & key features of the add on Rightmove it was saying it’s a three-bedrooms house and then with in full description of the AD says “This two/three bedroom terrace property is well presented and spacious”

So, when i enquired about the loft conversion from the seller, He told me that he got this property via Probate after the death of his sister. He does not have any documents about the loft conversion (regarding planning permissions or any other council approval etc.. ). He even does not know when the conversion was done. He also told me that she bought the house in 1995.

So officially it is a two-bedroom house as confirmed by the property agent too. But they did advertise it as three-bedroom House, which is strange

I am not sure; how can it affect me in the future to buy the house with an existing loft conversion but without having any documents related to it. Though I am the cash buyer and it should not be a big problem, but I am thinking from the perspective while re-selling the house in the future.

Please advise, what should I do in this scenario and how I can cover myself legally from any concern or query by the council or building regulations department in the future.

Thanks in advance.

Is it possible to contact the council or planning office yourself and see if they hold any documentation on it?

We looked at a house with a dodgy loft conversion. Quite apart from the safety aspects (if it hasn’t been done properly how can you trust it?), it can often cost a lot to put it right.

As long as it is valued as a 2 bed then fine, but I suspect you’re paying for a 3 bed that you may struggle to sell in the future.

You can get an indemnity policy against the council taking action, but that doesn’t cover off the safety aspects. If you think you’d be happy with that, whatever you do DO NOT speak to the council - once they are alerted to the possible breach of building regs you cannot insure against it.

Personally, I’d walk away (as we did with the one we looked at).

To convert a loft you would most likely need to move the roof trusses. Moving the roof trusses needs to be properly calculated in order the trusses remain load bearing. As a cash buyer you can proceed but you should apply for retrospective planning permission/building warrant. This will cost, as will your required drawings from architect. It will cost even more if it hasn't been done properly. My current house we purchased without pp/bw for garage, french doors and removal of internal wall (which we could see wasn't load bearing) and applied retrospectively. An attic conversion I wouldn't touch. You can search your local council planning online possibly
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I am not surprised the agents marketed it as a three bed, even if it only has planning permission for three. In the league table of underhand estate agent manoeuvres that is not really up there. I agree with a PP, contact the Council’s planning department to check if they were involved with the extension. If not, it is fishy. Ask the planning officer for advice and trust what he/ she says, not the estate agent or vendor. My cousin got a friend from his church to do an extension which is accessed via a ladder! But he knows that when he sells, it is as a two bedroom not three bedroom house.

“ planning permission for two”!

@doughnutmuffin

Is it possible to contact the council or planning office yourself and see if they hold any documentation on it?

I dnt think its possible...I assume this can be done while searches are being carried on ..

I am confused...Should i buy it or not....on the other side i am thinking to re-negotiate the price with the seller so if he give me a good discount then i go ahead to buy it...As now the prices are coming down too.

what you think guys ?

We were in a similar position recently (in Stockport) but with a basement conversion that we thought had full building regulations, but it turns out it didn’t/doesn’t.

Firstly, you need to ensure you are not paying for a three bed, as without building regulations, it’s not a habitable room, and therefore should not be valued as such. That’s one of the first things I did...double check the valuation to ensure it’s not been classed as a habitable room.

I would get someone out to look at the work and assess the quality. Again, this is what we did...without building regs, I wanted to know if the work that had been carried out was at a satisfactory standard (quite often this is the case, but people cannot be bothered to get the official sign off from the council).

If you’re happy with that, I would speak to your solicitor about indemnity insurance...mainly just to cover your own back.

You can get the vendor to get retrospective building regs, but this will massively hold things up and I doubt any vendor would agree to this.

Ultimately, it’s wether you are happy to purchase the property knowing there’s not the official regulations in place. We were, we knew we were not paying for a third bedroom, we had the work checked and was advised it was done to a high standard, and we got indemnity insurance just to cover ourselves (the vendor paid for this).

We are also thinking of getting a building inspector on to advise what we would need to do to obtain the building regs as this would make it a habitable room, which could add value!

Hope that helps!

Hi. speaking from experience, I would either walk away or ask for a sizeable discount. We went down the regularisation route with the vendor which meant it was inspected and signed off by Council, but when moved in, the space was not suitable, too hot/too cold etc. So ended up spending mega bucks to sort it out.

Oh, and never trust estate agents - lying scumbags

@Misscf81

We were in a similar position recently (in Stockport) but with a basement conversion that we thought had full building regulations, but it turns out it didn’t/doesn’t.

Firstly, you need to ensure you are not paying for a three bed, as without building regulations, it’s not a habitable room, and therefore should not be valued as such. That’s one of the first things I did...double check the valuation to ensure it’s not been classed as a habitable room.

I would get someone out to look at the work and assess the quality. Again, this is what we did...without building regs, I wanted to know if the work that had been carried out was at a satisfactory standard (quite often this is the case, but people cannot be bothered to get the official sign off from the council).

If you’re happy with that, I would speak to your solicitor about indemnity insurance...mainly just to cover your own back.

You can get the vendor to get retrospective building regs, but this will massively hold things up and I doubt any vendor would agree to this.

Ultimately, it’s wether you are happy to purchase the property knowing there’s not the official regulations in place. We were, we knew we were not paying for a third bedroom, we had the work checked and was advised it was done to a high standard, and we got indemnity insurance just to cover ourselves (the vendor paid for this).

We are also thinking of getting a building inspector on to advise what we would need to do to obtain the building regs as this would make it a habitable room, which could add value!

Hope that helps!

First of all the thanks a lot for the detailed answer regarding steps to be taken.I have few more queries if you or anyone else can advise.

Firstly, you need to ensure you are not paying for a three bed, as without building regulations, it’s not a habitable room, and therefore should not be valued as such. That’s one of the first things I did...double check the valuation to ensure it’s not been classed as a habitable room.

Query = In the AD it says : A large loft room/bedroom with two ceiling Velux windows, modern ceiling spot lighting and wood effect laminate flooring. I have viewed it the loft too and TBH you can use it for office or even store or even to make it bedroom for child.
So should i consider it as a a habitable room ?
Also how to check the valuation to ensure it’s not been classed as a habitable room ?

I would get someone out to look at the work and assess the quality. Again, this is what we did...without building regs, I wanted to know if the work that had been carried out was at a satisfactory standard (quite often this is the case, but people cannot be bothered to get the official sign off from the council).

Query = I think you are talking about SURVEY here ...Please advise which type of survey i should conduct just to be sure at least loft conversion specifically and house in general is safe from safety and standard point of view ?
Any recommendation for a good and economic surveyer will be welcomed.

I will definitely go for the indemnity insurance.Can you please advise how can i ask seller to pay for it....would not it will be monthly cost and how will it work out..please advise.

The most important thing , i made an offer for the house with the consideration that its a three bedroom house...So should I get in touch with the seller and re-negotiate the house price....Can you please advise me how should i approach him and what points should i brought forward so he can reduce the price.

i really liked the house and also afraid if i said for price re-negotiation,he might say i do not want to sell it to you.

what should i do in case if he does not agree to reduce the price ?

Thanks

You dont need planning permission for a loft conversion

How old is the house would be the deciding factor for me. Lots of Victorian and Edwardian houses with attics. A newer house without building regs I would be very wary of.

You dont need planning permission for a loft conversion

but you need building regs sign off (council or approved surveyor) to prove the extdnsion is safe and built to building regulations.

I would not be spending money on searches and surveys until the loft conversion is checked by a structural engineer and signed off by Council building regs dept at the sellers expense. It might not be structurally sound.

Bluefixmug

Yes i know ive had s loft conversion done myself 😊

The indemnity insurance is a one off payment based on the value of the property. Ask the seller to pay for it, preferably one that covers the value of the property as it increases.

What’s the point of having indemnity insurance if the conversion is structurally unsound. It won’t cover costs to put it right.

The bottom line is that without buildings regulations sign in off it can't be classed or sold as a habitable room. It doesn't matter how many windows, how stylish it looks or how the current owner is using it. It is a 2 bedroom house without the correct documentation. So don't pay more than it is worth.
The seller has to either find the paperwork, get the correct sign offs. Or reduce the price to reflect what it is - a 2 bed property with a loft room.

Thanks, everyone for your replies..much appreciated.

Should I also ask the seller to reduce the price as there is no complete paperwork?

I also searched the inot land registry portal by putting the same postcode and found the houses sold on the same road during the last 7 months, their sold prices were much lower then I am offering for the current property.
There is roughly 25k price difference...I am too much confused by now. am I paying too much

Should I pass the reference about those prices to the seller to get the price adjusted accordingly.?

Do you think will he reduce the price when the property is probate and no sign off documentation for loft/extension.

It's hard to say if you're passing too much compared to others unless you know the square footage and specifications , it might be on the same road but much smaller or a North facing garden or next door to a business etc which would affect value. However it could be that they're two beds and priced as such, whereas your seller is pricing his house as a 3 bed even though legally or can't be classed as one without the paperwork. I'd be very wary they sound untrustworthy. Would you post a link to the Rightmove listing?

Building regs for a loft conversion cover things like making sure the doorway and stairs are wide enough for escape in the case of a fire. We had to have mains-wired smoke alarms and new fire doors fitted to every room in the house to pass building regs. That's aside from the structural stuff like whether the load is distributed correctly. I definitely wouldn't use an unofficial loft room as a kids bedroom - if a fire happened it could be a disaster.
Personally I'd negotiate a very large discount or walk on this one. I wouldn't want to risk over paying in this climate.