Load bearing walls?

[Radders23]

Please can someone help? I wanted to remove 2 small walls shown in the picture. One of them has a doorway with no lintel (wall A) and the other (wall B) is joined to a load bearing wall at 90degrees. I only want to remove the part of wall B that is on the left and leave the door way.

In the attic, wall A is perpendicular to the roof joists however there is a top plate of the masonry so the brick isnt visible at all as shown in the picture. There is a load bearing wall on the ground floor parallel to this wall on the first floor about 10cm away from the wall.

Wall B is resting on the floorboards with nothing directly underneath the floor boards. As I said, there is a wall joining on the right hand side that is load bearing. In the ceiling the bricks for wall B are visible. I mark up a picture here showing more detail for wall a.

All the builders we've had have said conflicting things and so not sure how to proceed.

One more picture

Get a structural engineer. They know and their work will be indemnified. Builders don’t make these sorts of calls, engineers do.

Do you know how much I could expect to pay for an engineer to advise?

We had a structural engineer who visited once, did drawings (for building regulations) a report and calculations to enable us to make a 2m gap in a major wall - it needs a steel beam. It cost a little under £500. We thought it was fairly reasonable. It was earlier this year and in East London.

You are very likely to need to comply with and apply for Building Regulations for this work. You will need to provide drawings and calculations.

I really wish I'd trained as a structural engineer as I'd be making a killing now!

@Mosaic123 Are you saying this is likely a load bearing wall? Thanks for sharing the price

I think you should assume ‘yes’ OP. The alternative is dangerous and you would invalidate your insurance by removing walls because you ‘checked’ with anybody other than a structural engineer. There is no definitive way of telling - beams, walls below etc etc do not ‘prove’ anything. ‘It depends’ is all ours would say until he checked other aspects of our house and he could then confirm.

Yes to a structural engineer. We paid £400.

A close relative trained as a structural engineer so I know a little bit. He says almost anything is possible but you need to have it checked by a qualified structural engineer. Don't rely on a builder's opinion.

A builder registered both as a company and for VAT who gives you a written quote with details of the work can absolutely make 'the call' and perform this work without a structural engineer.

Radders has explained that there is nothing underneath wall B (presumably at ground level) suggesting therefore that this is a 'stud' wall. Either way, correct me if I'm wrong but this is on the second floor, thus load bearing is vastly less of an issue. Having said that it could be argued that all walls are 'load bearing'.

I agree you should not rely on opinion, but this is bread and butter to most competent builders. Whilst you may believe that the extra spent on a structural engineer gives you peace of mind I don't accept that not using one will 'invalidate your insurance'.

My advice would be to get everything in writing and present this to LABC as a small building works project and they will ensure that the work is conducted safely and in accordance with Building Regulations.

Either way, correct me if I'm wrong but this is on the second floor, thus load bearing is vastly less of an issue

The roof can rely on the walls below!

Sorry I meant 'removing the walls yourself' would invalidate your insurance. If the roof caved in and you'd taken a wall down for example. It seems like the OP wants to do this on their own.

If a builder removes your wall and the roof falls in, their insurance would be paying.

Hiya,

No a builder would be doing the work. When I last talked to BC they didn't need to know about removal of non load bearing walls?

All the sites I look at say a competent builder should be able to make the call. But how do you know if the builder is competent?

I wouldn’t touch this without a qualified structural engineer. Some people might consider it overkill, but I’m not an expert in buildings, and I would want an engineer to run the actual calculations rather that a builder just saying that it’s ok! A good engineer should make a site visit and advise whether it’s load bearing/even needs to be calculated or not. Not doing things properly could be a costly mistake. And if I were buying a house I would want the evidence that engineer’s advice was sought

All the builders we've had have said conflicting things and so not sure how to proceed

Well that’s the key. You’ve tried builders, that’s not worked as it’s not straightforward. You proceed with a structural engineer.

I've reached out to some engineers and waiting to hear back. If it can be argued that all walls are load bearing, would an engineer ever say it's not load bearing?

The engineer will decide what load is being carried from the roof and where it is being supported. They will decide what measures need to be put in place to safely support the load, and they will look at the whole house, not just one wall. It really is the best option. In the south east we paid £500 for an engineer I would highly recommend (Hampshire)

Builders are sometimes happy to bodge things together with whatever they have to hand, and leave. structural engineers have insurance that indemnifies against mistakes. Builders can do off the shelf things but generally not something complex.
Identifying a load bearing wall can be tricky in older or non standard houses especially where changed have been made. Our se commented they don't worry about how the existing parts stay up, they just focus on the changed parts. So identifying the load paths might not be trivial, and if some of the load is shared by the wall, even unintentionally, what's above will drop when the wall is removed.

Please get a structural engineer to have a look at it.

@Radders23. With a camera on every phone all sensible builders take before , during and after pics. Ask a builder to show you if they have completed any similar jobs recently and bingo, out comes the phone with pictures of a before and after 3 metre wide opening.

Ask if they mind giving you the number of the customer they made the opening for . If they won't do this let them finish their cup of tea and say you'll be in touch.

If they give you the number.....well, do I really need to spell it out? OK, I do, voila, you have a satisfied customer and a competent builder.

@Bristolbitsandbobs

If it helps, it works like this: there are 4 ‘parts’ of a house. The first part is the foundation, then the next two parts are the ground floor and second floor. Then the final 4th part is the roof.

Imagine each ‘part’ weighs 1 tonne (they actually tend to be heavier at the bottom), then the ground the house is sat on needs to bear a load of 4 tonnes, the foundations need to be strong enough ( compressive strength to be exact) to hold up 3 tonnes, the ground floor needs to support 2 tonnes and the second floor needs to support 1 tonne.

In reality the roof also needs to have load bearing properties for snow and wind.

Simple. My statement still stands.

I sort of understand what you are saying regards insurance, although trying to get an insurance company to cover the risk of negligence would prove difficult regardless of who conducted the work.

@BurgerOnTheOrientExpress

Our new house has walls upstairs supporting part of the roof with nothing below (well a Death Star of steel), I would never assume which load is travelling down what. It’s the ‘never assume’ that I’m suggesting.

On the insurance front. Even more reason to use someone qualified surely. Perhaps I’m just risk averse.

I am not a builder or engineer, but looking at your picture, with two different walls in different orientations, surely at least one of them is load bearing. Also, won't you need a pillar to support the corner of ceiling above? I would get a structural engineer to look at it, as other posters have said. I think it would be money well spent.

@BurgerOnTheOrientExpress Yes and no. The structural engineer defines how load is distributed throughout the structure; that could be in many different configurations but always worth getting this sort of thing checked. I appreciate that some are happy with the builders judgement but I would want it signed off by someone who is certified in structural calculations, especially in times of high litigation and more to the point, safety of my family.