Elderly neighbour agreed to use ambulance chasing party wall surveyor

[Connie10]

Long story short we have submitted plans to building control for a loft conversion. We have had lots of letters from building companies / surveyors asking to quote for works. It didn't occur to me that our elderly neighbour, (in his mid 90's, lives alone) would also be approached regarding the party wall.

He has instructed one of these ambulance chasing firms to work on his behalf - as he was under the impression they was also working for us. They had also told him incorrectly regarding our proposed works (made them out to be worse than they are).

We are not in dispute - we have served him notice and he has agreed to the works. We have no legal need of a party wall surveyor. Are we still stuck with them fleecing us? If yes, what can we do to reduce bills? As you can tell by the hour, I'm losing sleep over this!

Note to say I'll be seeking legal advice when my solicitor opens on Monday. I'll also be reporting said company to Trading Standards.

If you have served a party wall notice then the neighbour does have a right to a surveyor. The surveyor will check his property before and after the works to make sure that your building has not caused any damage or detriment to his property. (It is not about agreement or not. And he probably cannot stop the works anyway).

Did you not instruct a surveyor for him? If you had then he wouldn't have used his own.

The neighbour has a right to protect his home.
The while point is to protect himself from the homeowner ( you) trying to stop any appointment or effect any agreement.

If everything is kosher there will not be any problems.

Sorry I'm not sure I have worded the original post correctly.

A) according to Government guidelines you only need a party wall surveyor if you are in dispute about the works. You can serve notice and have notice agreed without involvement of a party wall surveyor.

B) We are not in dispute. Notice was served, our neighbour agreed to works. He has no issues with the works - which are minor as all our load bearing walls run front to back of the property, not from side to side on the party wall. We literally need to bolt three wooden beams into the party wall.

C) We have agreed with witnesses that if there was any damage we will rectify any works. We have discussed works and party wall agreement with our neighbour (with other neighbour's present as he is vulnerable and we wanted him to fully understand the scope of works). We do not have a start date set in stone, but once we do we are set to take photographs of the party wall, so we can see any damage. We will absolutely fix it and take out any relevant insurances.

D) If we was in dispute, I'd have no problem using a professional party wall surveyor. This lot are pond life.

E) This firm approached us and our neighbour prior to party notice being served - they watch building control to see who submits what - ambulance chasers. They basically scare people into thinking they need a party wall surveyor. I binned the letter. But the way it was worded, our neighbour thought we had employed this surveyor. He believed he was doing the right thing by agreeing to contract them as his surveyors.

F) this is a well known licence to print money. Once you have agreed to a surveyor you can't sack them. It is a highly unethical way to gain business. Our neighbour has been conned out of thousands in the past. We would be liable for any reasonable costs, but anything over and above, he can be liable for.

I have no problem at all with him employing a professional party wall surveyor. I've got no problem paying for professional services should we need them. He has however been taken in by a cowboy company - with us liable for the costs. This is my problem.

When we were looking at doing some work, we were advised that we would need to pay for up to three party wall surveyors. One for us, and the neighbours could choose their own party wall surveyors but we would have to pay the costs of their surveyor.

As far as I remember they would be appointed before any work, so they could evidence the state of walls etc before and then after the work.

We ended up not getting the work done, but sold and moved instead.

Ok I'm still not making myself clear 😂 my fault - it all makes sense in my head.

Neighbour has been tricked into appointing one if these guys: resi.co.uk/advice/general/party-wall-ambulance-chaser

We have all party wall paperwork and agreement already in place. We don't need any further work from a party wall surveyor (only if we go into dispute - which we are not - and at that point I'd like to instruct a surveyor we have had recommended, been able to vet and we all agreed to).

If we do go into dispute then I'm more than happy to pay for a PROFESSIONAL, REPUTABLE surveyor.

These guys have tricked him into thinking they was working for us and he should sign a contract with them. This is downright wrong.

Has anyone had similar experience please?

Hiya! This sounds stressful and frustrating. As your neighbour's agreed to the work being done, (as long as you have proof that he has agreed) there is no need for a party wall award so therefore the appointed cowboys should not be able to then charge you for creating an award.

It sounds like your neighbour just needs to de-instruct the cowboy firm in writing / make them aware that he does not need a surveyor or an award as he has already formally consented to the work.

Thank you @MrsHMitch yes I have everything in writing, signed and dated that he has agreed to the party wall works. Our other neighbour witnessed him signing everything, as she was there to help him understand the building plans and our proposed works - he's a little deaf and I tend to talk fast - so I didn't want him missing anything or feeling like he couldn't query our plans.

Thank you so much for the advice. I'll have a chat to him tomorrow.

He should have objected to your party wall works and appointed his own surveyor to look after his interests. In effect you have denied him that course of action and, no doubt, he didn’t understand the process. Your party wall proposal isn’t looking after his interests, it’s looking after yours. He has had no say in it.

We have recently become involved in a similar situation for my elderly mother. Her neighbours wanted access into her land to dig their foundations. Our surveyor said no. They have also taken photos of the land, agreed restorative work and hours of working. Also length of time for completion because who wants building work going on for years? Who agrees whether his property is damaged by your work? You?

If your neighbour just agreed to what you wanted, and you effectively stood over him and denied him his right to his own surveyor, that was unfair of you. He is entitled to object to your proposal and negotiate. He would be mad not to. I think you should reconsider the way you have treated him and accept he has a right to have a surveyor paid for by you. He’s elderly and you know he has not been represented. That’s not how an elderly person should be treated.

I would guarantee if he was your father in his mid 90's and his neighbour was doing this, you would want to protect him and have a surveyor etc.

You could of saved yourself this hassle by offering up front to pay for one help him out and give him a few numbers of reputable practices.

In his mid 90's are you for real?

To be honest it sounds like s good thing that he is seeking legal advice although ideally not with the firm you picked.

From what you say it almost sounds he is a vulnerable old msn and had at least two neighbours telling him to sign. Did you ask the other neighbour to be there? Does he have a family? Did you explain and make him sign there and then?

The documents you got him to sign are in your interest not his and are pretty much not enforceable for him if your builders/ you do not adhere to it. I am glad he is getting someone to act on his behalf.

He picked

When I had my work done I paid for a survey on both sides of my mid terrace for peace of mind. I was advised that if it got to dispute and they appointed their own I was liable for fees whatever they were.

It cost me about £2k in all - money well spent as far as I was concerned.

Actually I don't much like the sound of the way you've handled this OP. He is perfectly entitled to appoint whoever he wants and it does sound like you've stood over him to get him to sign. Most people "dispute" and get their own surveyor (my surveyor told me 90 per cent) to represent their interests. It's their house after all, their main asset Sounds like you don't even have a surveyor involved at all?

Our neighbours refused to appoint a surveyor and kept serving defective notices. It backfired badly as the notices were not right and when surveyor finally got involved all had to be redone and were out of time.

Basically you are pissed off you have to pay the fees. That is what this is really about. Go to your solicitor by all means but if the surveyors review what he has signed and finds out you made any mistakes at all (did you for example notify him of his rights properly?) you are back to square one.

I think this neighbour didn’t realise he could dispute, and indeed must dispute, the notice to ensure he has his own surveyor to look after his interests. He needs to dispute and not be railroaded by you OP. So you have to now accept his decision and treat him fairly.

PLEASE read my posts in full. I am more than willing to pay for a surveyor for him. A reputable one. One recommend by people. Not a fly by night company with terrible reviews who think it's a licence to print money.

I told him he could dispute. In front of witnesses! Who have known him for 40 years plus. They have known us for 5 months. I have told him if he wants to dispute I pay for everything.

He was duped into using them.

Just to be clear, a party wall surveyor is not only for if you are in dispute. It really is good practice to have one dispute or no dispute. I went through this whole process myself and nowhere did it say a surveyor should only be used if there was a dispute.

The surveyor should set out the terms and conditions, for example of you need access to the neighbours land. The surveyor should also put in writing the condition of the neighbours house 3rd erc.

You seem to know a lot about the party wall issue, so I don't get why you think it's only if there is a dispute?

This is the type of company I'm talking about resi.co.uk/advice/general/party-wall-ambulance-chaser this is the problem.

Once again I'm more than happy to pay costs for a good party wall surveyor.

@ProfessorPollington your surveyor pulled a fast one on you! 90% of people do not use party wall surveyors. The guidance is clear this is only if there are substantial concerns. The vast majority of people do not use one - especially for something as simple as a loft conversion

More info here: www.partywall.expert/party-wall-blog/party-wall-ambulance-chasers-and-what-you-should-know/

Our neighbours were doing a full renovation including building on the boundary line and digging foundations within 5cm of our foundations so having our own surveyor to advise was invaluable. There were a lot of issues (eg they actually needed to take down our fence but didn't tell us this up front in the documents or want to agree how they would do that or reinstate it). We got a good word of mouth recommendation for our surveyor and we trusted him. To other posters if you trust your neighbours builders to mess about with your property and don't get advice well that's up to you but it would be sensible to ensure there is someone competent representing your interests.

To the OP the reason I don't like your approach is you didn't appoint a surveyor at all yet as far as I can see and you don't recognise his right to have his own surveyor, you still want him to use yours if you do in fact appoint someone?

I agree with the above.

You should have appointed a party wall surveyor to complete a survey of the party wall in its current state, to explain neighbour’s rights to him an to allow him to think about it and sign the agreement without you being present.

It is a bit after the event to be saying you would appoint someone now.

Maybe you need to appoint someone reliable now and start afresh if your neighbour is willing.

We extended just after this law came in and it seemed a lot of unnecessary expense when the neighbours were already in agreement, but having done the process properly is not something worth saving a few pennies on and the neighbour, who was a lovely person and often used as a doormat by others who see this as a green light for getting what they want, really appreciated the time spent by the surveyor explaining things properly and the survey with photos.

The 90% of people who don't use one are stupid then.

I didn't appoint one and had a huge amount of damage done to my property. I now have to take the neighbours to court to be reimbursed.

I know someone who didn't use a surveyor and regrets it did to the appearance of what is now their garden wall.

Someone else who had lots of damage caused by a neighbour who was doing a loft conversion.

The party wall surveyor also negotiated rights of access, scaffolding erection if it needs to stand on a neighbours land. You need one.

Completely agree with the above. A loft conversion isn’t always straightforward for the neighbour. What company he appoints is up to him. Whether you like the appointment or not is irrelevant and not your business. You have to go with his choice. After all, the surveyors could be perfectly legitimate now. It’s possibly better for him to have appointed a local party wall surveyor but you cannot choose for him. As long as your surveyor and his surveyor formulate the agreement, what’s the problem?

Yes but he is perfectly entitled to appoint who he wants. He does not have to get your approval.

By the way, standing over someone telling them they can dispute is not the same as them deciding for themselves and taking independent advice. You should not have done this even if there were other neighbours present. Maybe his family has stepped in?