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Hot water tank capacity help? Shower type conflict!

16 replies

sojo44 · 08/03/2020 20:22

Guilty of starting a couple of different bathroom renovation threads....

We're looking to install a water pressure pump, which would mean we'd be able to move away from an electric shower to a thermostatic one (HURRAH no more ugly box)!

However, my concern is that our hot water cylinder just couldn't cope. At the moment it's just able to fill the bath, which is great but the tap starts running cold at the tail end of the bath getting full.

The electric shower gives us flexibility to shower when we want and always have a constant source of hot water, which has become quite a luxury (even though the pressure isn't great).

Has anyone moved from an electric shower to a thermostatic shower (without upgrading boilers and cylinders)? Was there enough hot water?

We're currently 2 people, hoping for a third down the line (hoping to expand our little family), and have friends and family visiting overnight occasionally, so showers can be on hot demand.

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Muchlywrong · 08/03/2020 21:13

If you use a shower, you should be using less water. What you have to work out more than anything else, is the capacity of your hot water cylinder and the flow rate in litres per minute of your water. A tank that is unable to fill a bath though, is very rare. I would personally recommend that you look at upgrading it sooner rather than later.

PigletJohn · 08/03/2020 22:50

what colour is your hot-water cylinder, and what are its dimensions? Some photos would help.

how old is your gas boiler?

sojo44 · 09/03/2020 09:45

All very good questions @PigletJohn !

The tank colour is copper.
No gas boiler (house is on electricity only, my poor energy bills)!

No idea on the size of the tank (bought the house a couple of years ago and slowly saving up for different jobs and renovations). So this is my ignorance.

Picture attached of cylinder if it helps at all (it'll get a new insulation cover as this one is knackered)!

@Muchlywrong didn't even occur to me that a tank that struggled to fill a bath would be rare! I wonder if it's something to do with a connection issue then? Previous owner "DIY-ed" the bath in themselves. Assuming similar hot water capacity to bath but with better shower power, a bit worried we'll have the same issue with the shower and the hot water will run out far too quickly. The plot thickens!

Hot water tank capacity help? Shower type conflict!
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Muchlywrong · 09/03/2020 10:24

Looking at your cylinder, I would recommend not changing your shower till you've changed your hot water cylinder. You have what is called direct heating water, with what looks like an actual indirect cylinder. This means that you are heating your water from a direct source (immersion heater) instead of from an indirect source (boiler, solar, etc). For a direct cylinder, you should have two immersion heaters to heat your water, both feeding from the side of the tank. From your picture, it looks like you just have a top immersion heater. This would explain why you are unable to have enough water when you run a bath as you will only be heating the water in the top of the tank.
www.screwfix.com/c/heating-plumbing/hot-water-cylinders/cat830956#category=cat830982&directindirect=direct
www.screwfix.com/c/heating-plumbing/hot-water-cylinders/cat830956#category=cat830982&directindirect=indirect
That should help you see the difference, if I've not explained it brilliantly

PigletJohn · 09/03/2020 13:53

Hold a tape measure against the cylinder. I suspect it is 42" high and 18" wide.

If you have no gas, do you have night storage heaters? Peak rate electricity is an expensive fuel.

How old is the house?

If you have good incoming water flow you could have a large unvented cylinder that will give you a powerful shower. Fill a bucket at the kitchen cold tap, and the garden tap or utility room tap if you have them, time it, calculate litres delivered per minute.

Please do get a new cylinder jacket. I find the yellow fibreglass sheds irritant dust and fibres. And keep the cat out. They are not widely sold now.

www.wickes.co.uk/search?text=Cylinder+jacket

A multifuel or woodburner stove can be obtained that will heat a cylinder.

sojo44 · 09/03/2020 14:41

@PigletJohn spot on with 42" x 18"! And the previous owner had 2 cats (we have none). You must be part magic!

Am I right in thinking that's about 140litres? Could it just mean the taps and thermostats aren't adjusted properly and the hot water shouldn't run out as quickly (and I can opt for the thermostatic shower) or am I pushing my luck?

100% ordering a new cover today!

Need to check re: storage heaters (all this is new to me, so learning as much as I can as I go). House is on E10 so would (assume) yes but I find it hard to find the controls (probably due to the monstrosity of a cover it has).

@Muchlywrong this makes a lot of sense thank you!! I'm going to ask a stupid question, could something like this be as simple as getting a new immersion or does the whole tank need to be replaced?

Thank you both so much! Really appreciated!

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PigletJohn · 09/03/2020 15:37

I have an idea they were 113 litres nominal, but you never get that much out of them. Due to convection, the hot water rises to the top and there is always some cold at the bottom.

When heated by a boiler, they can supply around 100 litres, which is about a bathful. But your immersion heater will be 28" long at most, so it will only reach about two thirds down.

As @muchlywrong says, it is better to have an upper and a lower immersion heater. The bottom one will heat (almost) the whole cylinder, over a long period, and the upper one heats a smaller amount, more quickly.

A 3kW immersion heats water at the rate of about 1 litre per minute, so an upper one would take around 25 minutes to heat around 25 litres for washing up; the lower one would take about 1hr 40mins to heate a hundred litres for a bath.

If you buy a new cylinder, it will be better insulated, and I'd suggest the biggest one that will fit.

With your current setup, I suggest heating it for an hour or more (the thermostat will stop using electricity once it is fully hot*), pour some bath foam into the bath and as much cold as you expect to need, then run the hot until it starts to cool. Then wait half an hour and there will be an extra 30 litres of hot you can add. If you wallow for another 30 minutes, there will be another 30 litres.

The reason for the bath foam is that it forms a thick insulating layer of bubbles to reduce heat loss.

Bath oil, skin lotion, hair conditioner etc will kill the bubbles.

*if it doesn't you have a faulty thermostat, and no safety cutout, which can be very dangerous, so must be replaced immediately.

PigletJohn · 09/03/2020 15:39

just spotted you (may) have a E10 tariff. If so, heat as much as you can overnight.

If/when you get a bigger cylinder with two elements, you can get a timer to run the bottom one every night, with an overrride switch to heat the top one if you run out of water.

CMOTDibbler · 09/03/2020 15:43

Rather than having a pressure pump, when we did our bathrooms we got a pressurised tank which has been absolutely fantastic - the shower pressure is better than when you go anywhere else.

TheSparklyPussycat · 09/03/2020 15:47

Jumping on the thread with a quick question. Can I heat my immersion heater more quickly by putting both elements on?

PigletJohn · 09/03/2020 16:11

depends if they come from the same electrical circuit, or different ones.

sojo44 · 09/03/2020 16:18

Thank you so much everyone! This is so helpful!! I'm slowly doing up this house (FTB) so have so much learn! (Ideal career and profession would be to do up and decorate houses so this has been such a very good learning curve)!

So it looks like the tank may only give about 60-70litres hot then? Would this be enough-ish for 2-3 people & assuming a daily shower?

Would you suggest moving to a thermostatic shower anyway and then upgrading the boiler system (e.g. bigger water tank + 2 immersion, pressurised tank or connect to gas mains as house is electric only and electric is £££). Or just sticking to the god awful electric shower.

I'm currently leaning towards thermostatic + upgrade boiler.
As if I go with electric, I'm probably stuck with it (don't want to rip the bathroom apart again just to change to thermostatic once boiler is upgraded).

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TheSparklyPussycat · 09/03/2020 16:39

There are 2 separate switches, and previous tenant used the lower one as a booster, or so he said.

Am jealous of your shower-to-be. Mine's on a mixer tap in the bath, and the non-adjustable shower head sprays water too far down the bath...

Muchlywrong · 09/03/2020 17:50

I would reckon that you would probably be getting 40 -50 litres of hot water and then maybe another 20 of warmish. It may just be enough to run a shower as you should be looking at 80 ish litres for an average shower. You will probably have to add a shower pump to get it working well enough though.
Connection to the gas mains can be quite an expensive option, so I wouldn't necessarily recommend it, but there are other ways to heat your house and hot water without a natural gas connection such as lpg or kerosene. It would probably be best to speak to national grid if you are contemplating it for a better figure though.
Do you know what your incoming mains pressure is for your water? If you are looking at installing a mains pressure pump, I'm assuming it's at the bare minimum of 1 bar? Working this out first, can give you a better idea of where to go with a hot water cylinder and shower. A thermostatic mixing bar is
@TheSparklyPussycat, it might be a good idea to change your shower arm for an adjustable one. Either a slide bar or an adjustable arm are readily available. It should be easy enough to do yourself as long as you have a drill and screwdriver. For your cylinder, I would recommend using the bottom immersion in the morning and evening for an hour, as this is the time when your usage is greater

PigletJohn · 09/03/2020 18:32

(it's not a tank, it's a cylinder)

I believe a "good shower" is considered to be about 10 litres (2 gallons) a minute. A modern combi should easily do that. So you couldn't get two five-minute showers out of the current cylinder, but you could have one. If the cylinder was hot before you started, and the immersion heater remained on, it would take half an hour to heat a further 30 litres.

So I think you'd need a frugal water-saving shower head to restrict water flow. Try filling a bucket under your current shower; time it, calculate how many litres per minute it delivers and consider if you find it adequate. In summer you can mix in more cold water, so will need less hot.

Am American-style shower is very profligate.

sojo44 · 09/03/2020 19:39

Cylinder yes, my mistake, it's the Americanisation in me (I'm Scandi).

Thanks so much for your help! Current shower is electric so not the greatest test subject.

Thankfully our local tradesman is also qualified and certified in boilers so he's going to assess it first day on the job and then we can make a judgement call on whether to go thermostatic + new boiler/cylinder or stick to the electric.

Safe to say thermostatic and current cylinder won't be a great combo!

Can definitely then look at different heating sources like you say @Muchlywrong . Not sure about the current mains pressure - cold water comes out fine, hot water due to gravity fed system is not terrible, not great.

Again thank you so much for all your help everyone! It's been invaluable.

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