Building survey problems - what next?

[MunsteadWood]

In the process of buying a house as part of upsizing / relocation. Our buyers have been in place more than 6 months now, market hot where we're moving so quite a slog to secure somewhere to move to, similar for our sellers to find their onward purchase.

The house we've ended up going for is a bit of a fixer upper which is not really what we were looking for (with toddler and new baby due imminently) but it's a great location, lots of potential etc and good price.

Survey results just back were mixed. Some good things (new roof, good windows, no signs of damp, etc), but some problems. Most we had anticipated as the house (1900s) needs serious "modernisation" but one thing uncovered is that the chimney breasts have been removed from inside the house but stacks left unsupported in the loft. One stack wasn't accessible during the survey but the other shows signs of cracking and slight movement, and is just resting on the ceiling joists. Chimneys and ceilings are perfectly fine though (at the moment!). Surveyor (a local guy and well qualified/reviewed) recommends removing the stacks and chimneys as simplest solution but given the house is a terrace so chimneys are joined to next door I'm not sure whether this is actually possible. Another option is to support with steels but presumably this is a big job?

I'm waiting to speak again to the surveyor to see how serious he thinks this is (eg might the stack come crashing through the ceiling while we sleep, so does it need to be done before we move in) and implications for party wall. We've also written to the council re theoretical removal of stacks. Thinking once we've got more info we'll then start contacting local builders for estimates etc and consider options.

Is there anything else we should be doing? Really reluctant to pull out at this stage but also mindful that this is possibly a big job on top of lots of other big jobs already planned, and with two small children (and pets!) in the mix.

I'm also planning to speak to insurance companies as conscious this could cause problems for mortgage? We've not had our offer yet...

Any other advice much appreciated! Trying not to have sleepless nights over this while we're still gathering info but it all feels quite stressful.

No advice but I think you should get a builder in ASAP, get their advice and some written quotes for each job.
If it's huge I think you should consider renegotiating the price and consider if it's too big a job in your circumstances with a young family.
I would think you might need the neighbours consent for anything affecting a joint chimney or party wall. You'd need good advice from your solicitor regarding this as you could end up with a legal battle if the neighbours were difficult.
Keep your solicitor in the loop what's going on at all times too.

Just read your update. If the work affects the value of the house you could find they won't offer to lend you enough.

If they left an unsupported stack in the loft what else have they cut corners on? Most surveys come back with warnings and you safely ignore most of them but that is dangerous.

Yes @InfiniteSheldon this is my concern. There are plenty of things I'd be happy to accept / deal with given we knew this house would need work but not something which is actually dangerous. I think the crucial things are how quickly / easily this can be resolved and whether we could (safely) live in the house while work was being done. If so it is probably manageable but if not we will have to seriously consider pulling out. I'd feel terrible for our buyers but I guess this is just how these things work.

And @keepingbees I guess if we can't get a mortgage offer that is our decision made!

How long is since it was done? If it hasn't moved in years you have time.

I doubt the surveyor would recommend removing it if it wasn't possible. That sounds the best answer but this may trigger party wall issues if a joint chimney and that brings costs as your neighbours have the right to,appoint their own surveyor at your cost. There may be a building regs issue (need to check with the council department)

It could actually be relatively easy to fit even if you need a couple of steels...but it could be difficult! Not much help,I know

No idea how long but the interior (where the chimney breasts were) is all very dated so I'd suspect decades.

I'll get onto local builders after the bank holiday and see what they suggest.

@MunsteadWood . Sounds sensible. It may be relatively easy to sort out and would be a shame to loose the house over it.

Could be a negotiating point if need be

We didn't discover until we had a loft conversion done that there were unsupported stacks ( were hidden behind some cladding when we bought) Freaked me out but nothing had moved in the 10 years we had had it and presumably since the previous owners had done a lot of work 10 years previous to that. The builders, well used to older houses, were able to support with a simple steel and was checked by building control. Was not complicated but tbf it was easy as they were already working on the area.

5 years later we discovered that the back part of the house (original footprint, kitchen and 1st floor above as narrow 'extension' forming side return, common in 1900s terrace) was not tied ie attached to the main part of the house. Had caused no problems for over 100 years but we were replacing the door/window frame for a larger size as part of a kitchen refurb and at that point it could have caused trouble. These old houses adjust to all kinds of settlement over the years, which is why rooms are rarely straight, but doing something major can cause more serious displacement.

There should be building control approval for removal of chimney support. If not vendor needs to remedy or prove it is ok. Or you negotiate a discount to do so.

I somehow doubt there will be building control approval for the chimney removal but I think our solicitor is chasing this via enquiries so we'll find out.

We have budget for renovation works so could probably afford to remedy but my main concerns are a) how much it's going to end up costing, b) how disruptive it will be and c) whether it's possible / safe for us to live there while we're preparing for work to be done and during the work. We could prob stay with family for a week or so but having to move out for much longer than that (eg having move to rental for a few months while works completed) would probably make this a deal breaker unfortunately. Really don't want to pull out if we can avoid it though.

Have you spoken to next door as their stack may also be removed inside ?

@JellyfishandShells We had planned a loft conversion as part of our renovation works so could do this first if need be and get stacks sorted as part of the work. Bit annoying as we don't really need to do the loft just yet and there are plenty of other things I'd rather do first. But this could be a good solution. The other bits we'd planned to do first are fine according to the survey (if a bit dated looking) so are livable with in the meantime.

@billysboy No I haven't. We don't live in the area at the moment so haven't been for a couple of months. I could go though and knock on the door. Or maybe send them a letter?? Google streetview suggests they at least still have their chimneys, so presumably stacks still there too. Don't know about chimney breast inside.

Having unsupported stacks is incredibly dangerous and they could fall at any point. I would not move into a property until it was sorted even if it had been like to for years. What cowboy builder did that?!

Removing them completely is possible but you will need to support the neighbours stacks. Usually this is done by tying/bricking them in to an adjoining wall, this could be a big job. Adding supporting steel joists is likely to be easier but depends on your house.

I could be wrong but I was under the impression that a house could not be sold without building regulations on any structural work done. Your solicitor will be able to advise. Removing chimney breasts needs to have building reg sign off and I would expect the vendor to either fix the problem and get sign off or give a reduction in price.

I have removed stacks/supported others in my house and made sure building control signed it off. The simplest solution is just to put some steels in and it isn't such a big job. I would leave the stacks on the roof if it is a terrace. However, if the house does not have building control sign off for the works already done, I think you need to check the implications for mortgage/insurance etc. I also would think you should be asking for a very hefty discount.

@BlueRose91

I could be wrong but I was under the impression that a house could not be sold without building regulations on any structural work done.

You are incorrect. Houses can be sold but it is buyer beware and really depends on when the work was completed. Once over a certain period of time, and I seem to recall 10 years there is little point but some buyers solicitors insist on indemnity insurance. The buyer beware aspect though really is down to why doesn't it have building regs and has it been botched? Did it have planning consent when it was required. This is an increasing problem problem when people are doing work as permitted development and either getting it wrong (as in planning consent should have been obtained) or not realising that despite not having planning, they still need building regs approvals.

So really you would need to understand the circumstances, dates and the nature of the work undertaken. The reality is that it is very difficult to know some of this as much of any sins is hidden under plaster!

Thanks both for this. The safety factor is my key concern. When you had steels fitted @lucy101 what did the work involve? Did they go in through your roof or through the ceilings (or both)? We'd gone for this house on the basis that we knew it needed lots of work but that we'd be able to (mostly) live there and muddle through while it was being done. If we end up with a long delay before we're able to move in or having to move our for prolonged periods that changes the equation a lot as I don't think we've got the budget (or energy) for rental costs as well.

Could you replace the chimney breasts, supporting the stacks that way?

@Nix32 that was our initial thought as when we first learnt about the problem our main concern was that we wouldn't have a working fireplace (then we thought about it a bit more...!) The surveyor reckoned that'd be a big job but I'll ask him again when we speak today.

I think there are two stacks, one on each side of the house. The one at the back is the one he's seen and is unsupported and slightly cracked. The breast is still there on ground floor but gone from first, so I guess that'd need either replacing in upstairs bedroom or a steel underneath it in the loft / bedroom ceiling. The one at the front is still has the breast in the first floor but not on ground floor, so perhaps that could be supported by rebuilding the fireplace in the front room?? (which we'd quite like to do anyway) That's the unknown one though as that part of the loft is not accessible at present.

Um. Sounds a lot of work. What I was wondering is that when the stacks were originally there, they won't have been supported by floor joists so how come the floor joists are supporting them now without some sort f work or support being added.

Frankly it sounds like the whole thing could come crashing down. The ground floor one for example you might want to add back, but something has defiantly been added to support the first floor as otherwise gravity alone would have done the work. You will only know if it was exposed

Is it time for a discussion with the seller as to how this goes forward? Also the builder mentioned earlier may be able to get some insight as they do probe more than surveyors in my experience

I'm going to have another chat with the surveyor today to get more info and will ask him all these questions.

What should we be doing re our lawyer on this issue? I've shared a list of recommendations from the surveyor on the property as a whole (which included asking about building regs for removal of chimney breasts) but I guess they won't otherwise be aware of this issue.

Or is this something we should be discussing direct with sellers?

I would have a chat with the surveyor and get him to list what needs to be done then talk to the estate agent , explain your concerns and get two quotes for the work to remedy the problem

Once you have a figure you will then know what you are up against and be able to work out how to proceed

I would think in a average two up two down a steel should be able to be fitted for £5k depending on spec and what a structural engineer recommends

An alternative if you can agree with neighbour is to remove the remaining stack , replace using a fibreglass chimney and clad with brick slips or just get rid of it altogether

Costs would probably be similar but would require neighbours co operation Either way I would look to the estate agent to negotiate a reduction based on your justification from the surveyor and the 2 quotes

You really need to see if you can get a friendly builder around as well as speaking to the surveyor. What you don't know is that some of the floor joists could have been set in the chimney staff external brick leaf to support the joists, and now they are acting the other way to support the stack

I think it will be really difficult to understand the extent of the issue until some floorboards can be lifted to see what is going on and what is supporting which.

I'm am incredulous someone could do that to a house. I assume it has been a total diy job of sorts

Good luck op and keep us posted