Party wall - neighbours unfair

[flowers82]

Hi everyone,

Does this seem a bit unfair - 'mean' to you?
We bought a Victorian terraced that we are doing a side and rear extension.
Our neighbours two years ago built an extension of the same nature but only extended by 1.6 meters because they wanted to keep more garden. We would like to extend by 3m and we are doing this with our other neighbours on the other side at the same time (no party wall issues there).

We have asked the neighbours if they would extend the party wall by a further 1.4m meaning that we would encroach by 10cm onto their boundary side. There will be a brick wall up anyway and he extra part of our extension, so all we are asking is that they have 10cm more of brick in their garden - not even affecting their property.
I am shocked they haven't agreed as it really will not make any difference to them but a huge difference to our space.
What can I do to try and make them be nice and reasonable? The previous owner let them build a 6.5 meter huge brick party wall! We are only asking for for 1.4m of a wall that would be there anyway!

What should I do?

Thanks!

How have they taken 6.5m by 10cm for a 1.6m extension?

ChangeOfTides I was just about to post that question.

OP I think I understand in orinciple why you think they are being hypocritical, but I dont understand where the 6.5 metres comes from.
Is it to do with the extension filling in the return then going 1.6 beyond the original back wall?

You need to go and speak to the solicitor who drew up the legal documents regarding what I think, from your posts, was the gift of land from the previous owner of your house to your neighbours.
You took a risk buying the property with that arrangement in place I think. Has the boundary been altered on the deeds?

I don’t think a party wall alters the boundary - or I might be wrong,

It’s the same as a fence or a garden wall. It straddles the boundary surely?

We need a solicitor to pop on here🙂

I might not be understanding but if I am, could you build the continuation of the wall at a slightly different angle so it stays on your land?

We need a diagram and you need a decent surveyor and/or solicitor to advise you. Just because an architect has designed something you want to build doesn't mean you have the right to build it.

I'm guessing 6.5m is 5ish metres for the side return and the rest for the back extension.

OP I think Dollymixtures is right. This is about personal relationships as well as legal agreements. Some of your phrases come over as quite presumptuous, Eg "What can I do to try and make them be nice and reasonable?", and you seem to expect them to do it to create good neighbourly relations. Demanding something from them seems an odd way to go about creating good neighbourly relations - surely you should start by offering something?

They had a relationship with your old neighbour and that was the background against which she gave them the land. You don't know all the details of that deal, whether they'd helped her out over the years or if they were good friends etc etc. Also if that 6.5m X 10cm detracted from your property at all, it would have reduced the sale price, so it's your seller who took any hit, not you. We can assume that you paid fair market price for your property as it is now, so you haven't "given" those neighbours anything. I can see they could disagree with your view that they owe you this favour because your seller did a favour for them (as part of her ongoing relationship with them, not yours).

I can take your word for it that it's the done thing to say yes if you like, but the only things that matter are your view and theirs, and what the party wall people can hammer out. From a people perspective, I think you will have far more luck if you go in with a less presumptuous approach and stop thinking they owe you this as by right.

Steve the Party Wall surveyor here. There is a right to extend or raise a party wall on a boundary that has not been built on before. But that right can only be exercised with the consent of a neighbour. If they don't consent that's it. You can't do it and have the right to build up to the boundary only. Building a party wall doesn't alter the boundary line. And as the OP had discovered it leads to a situation where extension one can have a party wall and extension two doesn't. So the wall is staggered.

You will still need to serve party wall notices and agree an award for building on the boundary, adjacent excavation and work on the existing party wall.

And if you make use of the existing party wall to the extension you will need to pay compensation equal to 50% of the fish of that will to your neighbour.

I don't understand that last paragraph Steve.

Anyway, I wouldn't want a party wall encroaching 10cm into my garden where there hasn't previously been one. And, let's face it, it wasn't you that let them build onto your side of the boundary anyway, it was the person you bought from.

I strongly suggest you don't take your architect round when you try to talk to them as they are likely to feel ganged up on. Just accept that you'll not get the size of extension you want and move on. You can't make them do anything. You can however be a pushy bugger and alienate them.

The last sentence should haveSaid"cost" not"fish" and was a point i was going to make.

The op would be best off taking into account the additional cost of paying for half of the existing party wall at today's prices. If they pay that to the neighbour then they can use it.
In our case we extended out an extra metre and a half and the architect designed a cavity wall that is total on our side of the fence. At that point we thought it was their fence but it turns out they think it's ours. We do have a small step in on the wall at that point but even if it was a party wall we'd have that due to modern walls being thicker than old ones. It's just a non issue, unless it's a corridor or somewhere where space is a functional issue.

You're being an entitled CF.

Pay for their land or deal with less space. And grow up while you're at it.

Here is how the govt suggest you deal with it

www.gov.uk/party-walls-building-works/if-you-cant-agree

This is for England and Wales

Wow OP. Entitled much!?!?

You can't 'make' anyone do anything just because you want it OP.

stevenway1 has told you upthread that your neighbours are within their rights (no matter what your predecessor agreed to)

I think what has been done previously ie, their building work is irrelevant as it's done now.

If I'm understanding this right, they would be loosing 10cm of their garden? It sounds like the garden space is important to them if they made their extension smaller to maximise garden space so if they enjoy their garden, I can see why they don't want to loose part of it for something that has no benefits to them at all.

I think they only thing you can do is go round with diagrams and talk to them again. If they still say no, sit down with your architect and relook at your plans/find a solution that doesn't require this 10cm space.

It is not just 10cm though, it is 10cm along the extended wall , with associated mess and disruption. Could you not step the wall in slightly?

If the OP isn't going to comeback with a fab drawing then I am outta here.

The issue is that they benefitted from their wall being on your land, you are also benefitting from that for 1.6m. They are not benefitting from the further 1.4m you want to build and therefore don’t want to give up 10x 1.4m. They do not have to agree to this-why would they, they’ve already built their extension.

I have experience, it cost me £6000, I went to court, probably would have won but couldn’t take the stress. Do not piss them off, I repeat do not piss them off, they will be super difficult and you will regret it. We have built over the c*s land next door with their permission but they haven’t built an extension yet-if they do they will benefit from the wall as you will for 1.6m. Rein it in.

Steve’s last paragraph means that the neighbours are within their rights to ask the op for half the costs of building the party wall that she wants to use for her extension (cost at time of building I believe).

You want a bit of their land and call it unfair when they refused? Where did you come from that makes you so entitled?

I live in a terraced house and my neighbours will soon be doing a massive extension at the back. They haven't asked us for any of our garden land and if they had we would have said No Way!

So the op needs to pay her neighbours for 10 cm of their land when they didn't pay previous neighbour for her land?

Noone knows precisely what arrangements financial or otherwise previous owner made with ndn. Anyway they are not relevant now. Maybe they thought they would use the same length of wall to match. A 3m extension rear and to side on a terrace is quite substantial. Did it require planning permission or fall with permitted development?