Seller can’t provide paper work for solar panels

[Longqueue]

I wonder if anyone has any answers to this... we are getting close to exchange on a house with solar panels. The panels were installed by the vendors parents (probate sale) and are apparently owned (I’ve seen paperwork relating to the FiT). The vendors can’t seem to provide any other papers relating to the panels, no installation receipts, documents or guarantees. The vendor can’t even tell me when they were installed, they keep changing their mind about the dates. Originally they said 2011, the energy company paperwork says 2012, but now the vendor says pre-2006. I’m unwilling to exchange without a resolution to this issue - I’ve read horror stories about not being able to get the FiT transferred without proof of ownership. I’m also wondering how they can actually sell something if they can’t prove they own it. The only resolution I can see is to remove the panels (at their expense/by knocking the price down). Any other ideas?

@Petitprince they do get payment and I have seen a FiT document. But that is the sole basis of their claim to ownership. No other paperwork has been produced

There are two separate issues here. Either they own then panels outright or they don't. And if they don't it's more complicated. But if they do then a PP is right that you can still benefit from the free electricity even if you can't claim FIT payments, the two are completely separate. The panels keep generating electricity used by the house regardless of whether or not anyone submits the FIT paperwork.

Is there nothing on the generation meter itself? If it's owned by another company then it should say on there. Or the inverter that converts the solar energy into electricity?

That’s an interesting question - I’ve not seen it. I suppose I could ask to but it’s in the loft and summer holidays/kids etc. And this is their issue. Surely they should be solving it not me?

It might never have occurred to them. If their previous owner had them fitted they might not really know. Ask them specifically to check and take photos of both. The generation meter is usually somewhere more accessible like where the fuse boxes are.

If they are owned by a company that went out of business, another company may well have bought out their assets which you might be able to trace. Of course they should do this but clearly they aren't going to so realistically it's up to you how much you want the house.

If you're sure they own them outright then you probably can get the FIT paperwork transferred eventually. Worst case you miss out on the extra payments but still get the free electricity.

@blafff you’re right about them not being inclined or perhaps even able to sort the paperwork themselves, and I probably am capable of finding it if I want to. I think I probably need to work out what a proper solution would look like and then help them to do that.

The only other thing I can think of is that they would have had to make an application to the grid company to install them. They might have a record? Ours for example is Western Power who are actually responsible for making sure something comes out of the plug sockets, it's separate to whoever they pay their bills to and whoever they get their FIT payments from.

We own ours and our company (like most) have gone bust - so not warranty
It's now. They would not be getting the FIT if they where leased - it would go to the company.

We had to supply loads of stuff to get the FIT and they come and check the meter every couple of years so I'd try the FIT company.

One more thing, a copy of the installation paperwork should have been submitted to building regs too. They don't have to get permission up front as solar panels are approved development and the installers are classed as self certificating but there should have been a submission at the end of the process which indicates the owner, site address, installer plus all the capacity details.

*self certifying!!

At last some solar panel knowledge

Building regs didn’t show up on the search but I’ve been on the phone to the lovely people (and I mean lovely) at the Microgeneration Certification Scheme. It seems that if they get a copy of the certificate for the solar panels that will solve the ownership issue. Apparently warranties should still be valid (but I don’t know how old the panels are). So if that paperwork is sorted all else should be ok... hopefully

If they are receiving the FiT how can it be possible for it to be a lease scheme? I've never heard of that happening.

And I'm not recommending that you ignore it, but based on what has been said it seems very unlikely that it will be a problem in terms of someone randomly claiming ownership. By all means keep raising it with them, make sure it is explicitly mentioned in the contract (or fixtures and fittings info) and I would be negotiating a price reduction if they can't provide proof so you can get the FiT.

As I said before, I would have thought the energy company would have the original documentation that was submitted.

(Sorry, typed that out and forgot to press post, so thread has moved on a bit!)

In terms of warranty there are various ones in play - the panels themselves, the inverter and and the installation. The panels and inverter are company warranties (so mine have 10 year warranty for product defect). The installation is a 3rd party guarantee also for 10 years. So if they were installed in 2006 they are likely to be out of warranty now. If you have seen the FiT rates then that should give you a date range for when they could have been installed.

@Longqueue my partner is a surveyor and has had a lot of experience with the FiT process. He suggests you should request the MCS Certificate. This will confirm the installation date, details of the solar array and installer. If they haven't got the certificate they can obtain a copy from www.microgenerationcertification.org In terms of confirming ownership the owner will have had to confirm this to Ofgem when applying for the FIT. They will have also had to confirm this to MCS, so there should be info already available. Failing that they could simply provide a declaration. I'm sure your solicitor should be capable of drafting a suitable document. Hope this helps.

Thanks @Cags123 this is exactly what I need. Really helpful!

Aha! Some paperwork has been magically found, but says 2002, and not the 2012 we were led to believe. So the panels are a decade older than expected. Does anyone know what the lifespan is likely to be - are they approaching the end of their life?

The guarantee is normally 80% after 20 years but the reality should be 90% or better.

Oh and the inverter probably doesn't last as long as the panels. But there seems to be lots of misinformation around inverters with cowboy outfits trying to sell upgrades or claiming that it needs replacing after 10 years, so I'm not sure how long they last in practice.

I don't think the 2002 date can be correct. The FIT scheme only started in 2010. If they were getting FIT payments then they must have owned the panels. Can the original owners e mails be read? I get an e mail every three months asking me to provide a reading from the solar panel meter. Once I have given the electricity company the reading, they send me another email confirming that I have sent the reading.

Thanks @scheissefuergehrin - that’s really interesting. So the FIT paperwork has 2012(/early 2013) as the eligibility date - and the tariff runs 20 years from then. But the conversation with the estate agent gave the year as 2002. They had previously said 2011, and then changed their mind to ‘pre-2006’ but until I get the paperwork I don’t know really. Is it possible that they were installed in 2002 on one scheme and then moved to FIT in 2012? I really know nothing at all about solar panels

Immediately prior to the FIT scheme there were grants available as an inducement to fit panels but you couldn't get the grant and the FIT together. I don't know about the position in 2002. My panels were fitted in 2010 and the FIT was guaranteed for 25 years so it is worth pursuing. My panels (3.84kw) earn me between £1,800 and £2,000 a year for no work apart from sending in a reading every three months. I've tried a Web search about grants in 2002 but unfortunately I haven't learnt anything from it. Is there anyone else reading this thread that can shed some light on this?

Thanks for trying! I also can’t find much about installation in 2002 - and I don’t know f that date is even correct until i see the paperwork so I will need to wait for that.

The document I do have (FIT certificate) lists a 3.43 kW array. It also suggests a change of generator in November 2018 which I’m wondering about. Maybe that’s the diverter? Anyway, I know far more about solar panels than yesterday so thanks!

And perhaps a stupid question - the energy can only be used for the house as it’s being generated (I.e. on demand) - is this correct? So in the winter (assuming they generate anything in the winter) we won’t get much benefit as we are at work for most of the daylight?

Does the certificate list the tariff rate?

Yes, the energy is only used as it is being generated, otherwise it is exported back to the grid. But there is often significant background use from appliances that makes it worthwhile. In winter it generates a lot less anyway (mine does about 100kWh per month in winter compared to up to 500kWh per month in summer). The FiT assumes that you use half of what you generate.

Hopefully photo will attach. But yes has some rate information.