Builder BS about building regs - how do I call it?

[TodgyCat]

Help, please -- my builder is responsible for our new sunroom meeting building regs. The windows breach regs and I don't think they're good enough. Now he is trying to say the windows were just mislabeled - what do I do?

When (4 months late) the windows arrived and were fitted, I noticed their labels said their U value was 2.8 - not what I would have chosen and in fact breaches building regs (which demand 1.6). Foreman onsite said they must be ok. I spoke to building regs - builder had told them it is an unheated conservatory which is exempt from regs. Made them look at the plans and they agree it is NOT exempt, as it has a solid roof and heating. They say windows should be 1.6. Which is the minimum I would want!

Builder has now come back with "the labels may have been incorrect".
I'm doubtful. I will have to ask him to prove what the U values are (invoice from his window supplier?)... but what should I do? The room is boiling hot (solid roof with lantern, lots of windows and ok it IS v hot just now - but I was concerned about this at the outset and wanted good glass to counteract it). I asked about reflective glass early on, but was treated as an invisible female, which I battle constantly with him (because I ask good questions, best way to deal with me is to pretend I'm not talking).

He has to meet building control regs though -- surely he can't get away with saying the labels are wrong?!?!?

Pretty furious. We're paying him 120K for this and it looks as if he cut corners just to get cheaper windows. It will cost a lot to change now, I understand that - the windows will have to be refitted which will require a lot of exterior redecorating - but it is his cutting corners that caused this (plus me noticing and checking regs). I'm very uncomfortable that I don't believe him...

Where can I turn? Lawyer? (horrid idea). He is also rebuilding the rest of my house after a burst pipe, on insurance, so the relationship is extensive and fraught and I have been living in 3 rooms for 18 months - another story...)

No architect, usually we are asked to decide every tiny thing, windows just appeared one day with no discussion...

is he fensa registered?
you can get the council's building regs team to have a look

Has he even notified the council of the work? It doesn't sound like it if he was trying to claim that it was an unheated conservatory not requiring approval. However, as the householder, I'm fairly certain that it's your responsibility to notify the council unless your agreement with the builder was that they take care of it.

I'd be looking in to notifying the council of the work (there's a fee to pay but there would also be a fee to pay if you notified at the outset).

Council will then inspect the work. Main trouble is, if notified at the outset, they would have made several site visits to inspect the work in progress. Foundations, floor slab insulation, structural calculations adhered to, wall insulation, ceiling insulation etc. They may request this is opened up to inspect.

May be worth getting a private building regs inspector in instead for advice but again, there will be a fee.

Have you paid the full amount to the builder?

Taken from planningportal.co.uk :

"If you are employing a builder, the responsibility will usually be theirs - but you should confirm this at the very beginning. You should also bear in mind that if you are the owner of the building, it is ultimately you who may be served with an enforcement notice if the work does not comply with the regulations."

So it looks like your builder would.be responsible for ensuring compliance BUT that if the work doesn't comply then it's you who will.be served an enforcement notice.

I'd be speaking to my local LABC department before paying the builder another penny.

Thanks for quick reply. It’s a permitted development, I did the paperwork for that, so council have visited but just to check foundations. Apparently they do one more check at the end. Builder failed to produce promised contract so we have no written evidence (I know I should have chased him...) but verbally he agreed to be responsible for building control and he has employed a company to provide the certificate.

He told them it was a conservatory but clearly they didn’t even check til I phoned them. Local council say it’s not their business as he is using a private building control company. I’m currently sitting on significant unpaid invoices .. but I need my house repairs to finish, let alone the sun room...

What do the plans say? They will have been submitted to building regs before you started

Permitted development only refers to planning, building controls cannot be bypassed

£120k of work without a contract?

You may be able to apply for retrospective BC approval but it could be messy.

I wouldn't be trusting the private company that the builder has employed.

I'd keep sitting on those invoices for a while longer and perhaps also start looking for a new builder. If they're not capable of doing a good job of the extension then I wouldn't trust them to do so on the renovations.

The window manufacturer have detailed spec. Someone(Builder or you) should have signed the order sheet to confirm they were happy with the details. Can Trading Standards help you?

You need to speak to the private building control company that your builder has appointed.
You should also ask for the full specification of the windows he has fitted.
The windows will require a FENCA certificate and the company should be able to tell you what U values they are.
I’d be very surprised if the labels were wrong!
Make sure the builder gives you something official from the company that states the U values, if he’s installed the wrong ones, don’t accept them, he will have to replace them.
Don’t pay him any more money until this is sorted as he may walk!!

By the way private building control companies are very common now, they should be trustworthy, you should find out who they are and contact them directly.

i know - we asked for one, it was promised, work started, we asked again it was meant to take 16 weeks, seemed simple... after 5 weeks asking it seemed to be progressing and it seemed daft to keep asking for it - we're now 9 months in...

i am not good dealing with blather and bullying, and DH just leaves it to me.

But we did get a contract for the renovations (FMB contract, even more money) and builder has weaseled around that very well in the details - I am used to dealing with big contracts at work, and I don't think this one helps us at all, in fact I think it obliges us to pay even if the work is substandard. I asked to add my written spec as part of the contract and (after we'd signed) he refused... "accidentally" didn't add it at the end of our 2.5 hour meeting about the spec (at which point I was exhausted, having argued and agreed every point on the spec).

I feel a moron but I think this guy is a good manipulator and after 18 months without my house, I'm not coping very well...

thanks to everyone for sensible suggestions. I feel such an idiot to be in this position and you've suggested some bodies who can help. I've just mailed the builder to say I can't pay til I see the documentation on the windows, very friendlily (is that a word?). I've been unable to work for a year with the stress of the wrecked house, so not at my best. This builder is better than others we've dealt with (he took over when insurance company's builder wrecked the house some more and abandoned us after a year - we took a lump sum from insurer which leaves us to manage the builder... he is definitely 100 times better than their builder was, provided you watch him like a hawk...

You need either a FENSA or Certass certificate or building control sign off. Personally I’ve never heard of private building control. But they’ll inspect the work and shouldn’t sign off on it off the windows don’t meet current regs. They won’t be fooled by ‘incorrect labelling’ excuse.
Can you get a contract from your builder now? You need something in writing to hold him accountable.

@TodyCat I’m sorry to hear it’s all been so stressful.
I know it can really get to you, especially if you are on site living through it.
We had issues when we were renovating and often wondered how we managed to get into the situation, but sometimes thing happen and it’s hard to get the best from your builders, sometimes they let you down, cut corners or play hard ball.
We ended up in the middle is a dispute between our builder and a window subcontractor, no real fault of ours, but our job suffered, we got a substandard service and there was very little we could do about it, even though we also had a independent project manager.
Our builder used a private building control firm, we had very little to do with them, but they signed everything off and we have all the certificates in place.
Try not to get to worried I’m sure it can be sorted out.

@Itscoldouthere thank you! makes me feel much better.
It is only a house -- I really try to remind myself of that! but you get caught up, it is more than we ever spent on anything except a whole house (my parents' inheritance...Mum would have loved to see it).

Just today we've been told they cannot lay the patio paving to the manufacturer's spec on grounds it is impossible; they want to use horrible cheap fabric in the drain in the garden, which we know frays to bu**ry (we've given them our own quality stuff to use instead, fortunately we had some leftover from greenhouse); they have us researching lawn edging for the drain work they want to do today; they want to change the drainage plans (for the 6th time) partly because they built the whole extension at about 5 inches the wrong height so the drains can't be fitted where planned... and I'm trying to sort out the windows mess.

But you've helped me smile :-) thanks

Oh I know, it’s just all those little decisions that build up to make you stressed.
We are designers and I used to project manage retail shop-fitting so you would think it would be easy but it isn’t/wasn’t.
I look at some bits of our house and think WTF how did we let them get away with that 😳
The end of the job is the worst, trying to get then to finish, usually they send half of the work force off to another site and they’ve spent all the money so don’t want to come back! We were so sick of it all by then, we just wanted them gone!
It is worth it in the end but it’s much harder than many people realise, if you’ve got a massive budget and lots of people overseeing then it probably ok, but usually it was just me at home having to make decisions instantly, sometimes my very particular DH would come home and say why does that look like that and I’d know I’d caved in too easily, it was a tricky relationship for me as I was at home, sometimes making them tea and the only female with 10 blokes in my house, the lines were a bit blurred at times.

Why is the builder deciding which building inspector to use? That is your decision.

I had plenty of advice about using private building inspectors.....needless to say we didn't use them as basically in the pocket of the builder.

Update: the builder's pet building controller has just asserted that the building meets regs. No details. So, strictly, I will get a certificate. But I'm not at all happy - as MarieG10 says, it's bad to have regs in bed with the builder.

At the moment, half the house indoors has gone from a cool haven to sweltering and humid (partly cos the screed is still drying) - I'm really worried we'll be wrecking the house's summer coolness if we don't replace the brand new windows. This isn't yet proven (we have not yet been able to ventilate the new room fully) and recent weather is v warm... am thinking of paying him to redo the windows to the spec I originally requested.

Don't know if I can get council to look at it now...would prefer their opinion.

DO NOT PAY HIM TO DO THE WINDOWS TO THE SPEC PRIGINALLY REQUESTED.

If it's what you originally requested and if it's what was priced for then it should be done without you paying extra.

Perhaps look into your own private BC inspector rather than the council? As MarieG10 says, if the builder selected the BC inspector then they could be in their pocket so a second independent (albeit employed by you so could be argued not independent) opinion can't do.any harm.other than whatever the cost of the inspection is.

thanks AndreaDonno ... I discussed it with him but it's not in writing (idiot me, but we have discussions almost every day, often for hours, he goes round and round in circles til my head hurts). I did point out that neighbours have all had problems with excessively hot conservatories and replaced the glass, and that I wanted reflective / low e glass.

So I don't feel I'm on firm ground saying it was the spec (sorry, didn't express that well before) - it is what I asked for but it wasn't documented. He will fail to remember the two conversations we had about it.

It is amazing, as Itscoldouthere says, how you slip into bad situations an inch at a time....I'm not as stupid as all this suggests...

It was in the news today that private building inspectors are having trouble getting insurance, so beware!

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/07/21/homeowners-face-pulling-extensions-grenfell-building-inspection/

Hi @scaryteacher - yes, council mentioned this when we went to see them. I've been thinking about asking council to reinspect from the start - their fee is 480 but it means gaining access to foundations and roof so would be disruptive...

This means maybe we really should do it. thanks for the headsup.

No problems - better forewarned.

You are in a strong position having not paid. Insist on what you agreed, even if it was verbal, and don't let him bully you. Builders will always choose the cheapest and easiest they can get away with. Go with your gut and hold firm.