Solar panel problems

[Wingingitsince2018]

We are purchasing a property that has 14 solar panels on the roof, which was a major factor in us offering the price we did as we worked out the lower power costs would offset the higher council tax making it affordable.

We asked the vendor who was at the viewing what was happening with the panels as I know sometimes people take them with them. She stated that they were staying as they were relocating abroad.

What she did not state, and we and the agents have just found out having had surveys etc all done, is that they still owe over £6k for the panels as they are on finance!

They have basically asked if we want them removed or if we want to the contract changed to our name so we can continue to pay them off at a cost of £120pm!

We would not have offered as much if the solar panels were not on the house, they were being removed or we knew they were not paid for.

We are thinking of going back to the vendor and saying you either pay them off and we pay the agreed price, or you transfer to us and we pay 6k less for the property. They are in a hurry to move which we can accommodate, but we are not in a hurry ourselves.

Just wondering if people think it is reasonable for them to only just disclose this and for us to go back to them with those options?

Surely it's the same as being told, 'Oh the kitchen is on finance so you will need to keep paying for that or we will take all the doors with us' which is blatantly ridiculous.

Ideally I'd want the panels left (I'm all for them) but paid off in full first - I supposed this could work with a decrease in cost and transfer of finance, but I'd be more comfortable with them sorting it first.

If they are in a hurry and you aren't (and can bare to pull out our necessary) then you have the upper hand to push for what you want.

*bear

We would absolutely love for them to stay, I'm just not willing to pay more money for them.

I would prefer for it to be paid off by them, but we would save slightly on stamp duty if we reduced the offer.

I can't see that removing them would do any good.

I doubt that second-hand panels are worth enough to pay for labour and scaffolding to remove them.

And there is a risk the roof would leak afterwards.

I think the vendor should be expected to settle their remaining debt, or you should knock off enough to cover the cost from your offer.

If the house has a charge against it, I'd expect that to be cleared, like any secured debt, on sale of the house.

£6k is round about what they cost to be installed, including labour and scaffolding. Not what they are worth now.

Panels are not usually sold to the general public, but I have an idea that last time I looked, installers paid in the region of £250 each. A second hand one would be worth scrap value.

here we are.

They've come down a bit.

Thats great to know @PigletJohn I hadn't considered damaged caused by removal so have included this in my response. The vendors are moving abroad so the cost for them to take them with them would be astronomical.

I have responded that they must be paid in full for the offer to remain as it is. If they remove them, we would request a new EPC rating (as the B rating advertised would no longer apply) and have the roof surveyed and then adjust the offer accordingly.

We would absolutely love for them to stay, I'm just not willing to pay more money for them.

Don't forget that you offered the price you did based on the ongoing lower costs due to the panels though - as a set-off for the c tax.

No panels means higher costs AND the higher c tax!

I'm very surprised that a debt is transferable, it doesn't sound right at all. It's not dissimilar to them leaving, say, a cooker which they bought on finance, and expecting you to take over the payments. I would be insisting the debt is cleared before completion (even if they have to take out a temporary loan), or I would be walking away. I can't see that removal would be an easy solution, as you say, what with the chance of collateral damage to the roof.

You're in a very strong position - the debt should be cleared by the sellers. It's like owing £6k on new windows... that debt doesn't transfer to the new owners... think they're trying to pull a fast one.

Removal would definitely damage your roof. Installation often does as well, so look out for what your survey says about surrounding tiles.

We had a similar situation when we bought our house (except that we were happy to have the solar panels on a loan because the loan payments were going to be paid from the government FIT payments, so we wouldn't actually have to pay anything towards them ourselves, we just wouldn't make any money from them either)

But actually when it came to the crunch our mortgage lender would not allow us to take on the loan because they considered it to be a "first charge" on the property and they needed to have first charge. They were the only lender who would lend us enough to buy the house so we were stuck... you might want to check whether your mortgage lender has a similar issue?

By this point we were so far down the line that the vendor said they would sell them to us so they wouldn't lose the sale. We were in a very strong position to haggle but also completely broke as every penny we had was going into the purchase. We haggled the price way down from what the vendor wanted, but it was genuinely all we could scrape together.

Now we make a lot of money from the FIT payments as well as getting cheaper electricity because they were installed a long time ago when the government FIT payment scheme was much more generous

I would try to find out when they were installed and how much you stand to make in FIT payments and how long they will continue for after the loan has been paid off. You might be paying in the short term but could make some money from them in the future?

@JetsetJetlaggedJaded I will ask them about this. They have said in their email that we would have to pay £125pm to the finance company and didn't mention anything in regard to the fit payment so I am assuming they don't qualify for some reason?

To be honest I don't know much about the various schemes and solar options so need to do some digging around tonight.

We would probably find a compromise somewhere, but 5 years of £125 a month just isn't possible, even with the prospect of long term gain.

Very good point about the mortgage! Will be on the phone to Santander in the morning!

@tigerseye10 they are definitely being CF

@JetsetJetlaggedJaded do you mind telling me when your panels were installed, how many you have and how much your fit payments are just so I have a ball park idea?

The vendors have paid 50% of the cost, so based on their being 5 years left they were presumably installed 5 years ago and therefore should definitely qualify.

@Wingingitsince2018 unfortunately neither me nor my husband are very clued up on the details but I've managed to find a certificate saying they were installed in 2012 and estimated annual generation is 1079

However, confusingly, we actually have a bunch of solar panels in a group and then another single one on its own, and we don't know if this certificate relates to all of them, just the cluster or just the single one.

We don't even know if 1079 is a high number in the solar world - sorry that we can't be more helpful... maybe someone else on mumsnet will know more about that

To be honest I'm not sure why they would be paying a lease AND not receiving any FIT payments but I'm no expert, maybe some of the solar leases work that way, so I don't want to accuse them of anything... but if they're trying to get you to pay off the lease while they keep getting the FIT payments then they really are CF!

@Wingingitsince2018 Oh and on average for '1079' (whatever that means!) installed in 2012, we get about £1600 per year in FIT payments. We will get that for 25 years from the date of installation as far as I understand - but it's based on how much you produce and export back to the grid so that figure may go down if the panels stop working as efficiently.

Basically, as I understand it with my limited knowledge, unless you have a smart meter, (- we don't have one because apparently lots of people with solar panels have been having trouble with them -) the government assumes that you export 50% of what you produce back to the grid and they pay you a tariff for that. In theory, once smart meters are working properly for people who export electricity, they will be able to say exactly how much you are exporting

As I understand it you install the solar panels and then you're locked into whatever tariff the government is offering on the day. Unfortunately I believe that the tariff dropped significantly just after ours were installed - the vendor made a big deal of that - but as far as I know if your panels were installed a few years ago, you should still get something

Hope that helps!

@JetsetJetlaggedJaded Thanks for responding!

I am trying to research it all and am getting very confused Why can nothing just be written in very simple language? I wonder if there is a solar panels for dummies book...

I have emailed our agent again asking them about this. I agree that it is strange they didn't mention it, but would be equally strange if they didn't register for the scheme!

Would definitely be new heights of CF-ery to make us pay for the panel and pocket the fit payments! Trying not to think the worst of people but they have already annoyed me so much I cant help but wonder

@Wingingitsince2018 honestly, it's a bunch of gobbledygook to me. All I know is that my husband provides the generation readings to Eon 4 times a year and then they pay us whatever they calculate they owe to us.

I don't understand how it's calculated or anything, but the annual figures are roughly the same each year (and higher when it's particularly sunny) so they must know what they're doing and I just let them get on with it.

As we didn't pay for the panels ourselves we've been a bit blasé about the whole thing to be honest, so we just take the money while it comes and if one day Eon turn around and say "that's it, you've had your lot" then we will have had a good run but I do think we've got a few years left (fingers crossed)

If I was paying for the panels I would have asked a hell of a lot more questions and gotten a lot of stuff in writing before committing to purchasing them - good luck with it all!

What solar panels earn you will depend on when thy are installed and registered for feed-in tariff. You earn money for generation and money for assumed export - plus of course save on electricity if you utilise them when sunny.

If there is any chance thy are expecting you to pay for panels and keep the FiT payments they are the biggest CFs going!

My SiL has just bought s house with panels installed (all paid for on installation) and got FiT payments transferred -they have feeder panels than us but earn more as registered earlier.

Thanks for the info @Bottledate

There are 14 solar panels on a 3 bed semi, which I would have thought would be plenty to power the house! It's west facing and there are no trees to cause shade etc. - but it is England

Do you mind telling me how many panels you and your SIL have?

We've got 28 east/west (to gain from both sides of roof). We make about 12p/kWH which adds up to £1000 annually, which equals our annual (enormous in winter) gas and electric bills. In a couple of years we'll have earnt back the initial cost of the panels, so all payments free that are profit. We use solar as much as poss for power and heating hot water in the summer. Basically it is worth working out what they will be worth to you if you can utilise them well, but you need more information about the specific installation.

SiL has about 16 - this is common because that equals the 4kW limit that existed without needing extra paperwork/permission and got the highest fit rate in early times I believe.