Who is responsible re flooring issue

[beckypv]

Last week we had lvt (that I purchased) installed across our new extension plus hallway (60m2). I used an independent fitter. Unfortunately within a week over half the floor has lifted and they have come today to look and have concluded that he sub floor is still damp and that is why the screed has lifted away from the floor. So my question is, who’s responsibility was it to check the sub floor moisture levels. The slab was laid on the under floor heating at the beginning of March? Obviously there is going to be a lot of cost to burden of redoing this. The flooring guy has implied to us today that the builder should have told us when flooring is ready to lay. I think surely the flooring fitters should have taken a moisture reading if that was a potential problem. Or should I have warned the fitters that it might still be damp? The flooring guy is a nice guy but obviously it’s going to be pretty expensive to buy all new lvt, and he doesn’t want to bare that cost. How should I play this? Basically it’s a cock up!!!

Did you just book him in to lay the floor and he didn't ask about the subfloor? Depends what actually happened. Why do you have to buy new LVT? Can it not be cleaned and relaid?

When we had our LVT laid the fitter checked the moisture levels and screeded then laid the floor.

Forgot to add - the fitter insisted he buy and store the LVT although he used the supplier we had found and didn't charge a premium. Presumably that meant he controlled the storage, etc before it was laid.

I think it'd definitely be whoever fitted the floor. Before a floor gets put down, it's their responsibility to check the site conditions, moisture levels, humidity etc and as a professional they should know when the sub floor is too wet. I'd bring it up with him and take it from there!

I asked him round. Told him I wanted lvt in certain areas, and carpet in other rooms. He measured up and gave me a fitting quote, plus prices for different carpets/lvt. I decided on an lvt which he gave me a quote for but he said he was happy for me to supply if I wanted (which I did). He is supplying the carpets etc. He is in no way connected to the builder.... who has finished.

I've had LVT fitted twice and had a different fitter for each one. They both took moisture readings. One of our floors came back with a higher than recommended moisture level so the fitter used a different screed because of that. I would say the fitter should definitely have checked.

Hi, so I work for a very long established Flooring Company and have been in the trade for 22 years. I’m afraid it doesn’t sound like it’s the floor layers problem, if his contract with you was on a labour only basis. Unless you have specifically told him there could be an issue with the screed not being dry enough, why would he test it and allow for a surface DPM? What type of screed did you use? A lot of issues with this are down to a liquid screed and the incorrect latex being used, therefore the latex blows off the screed, not necessarily down damp. It’s a real grey area I’m afraid.

Who did the screed? Floor layer or builder?

The flooring guy as done the fine screed (about 3mm thick) as that was all part of his quote of fitting lvt.

The room before was a standard post build room..... bare concrete floor, kitchen etc installed and walls in the process of being painted. Essentially there is no underlying damp issue.... it’s just the sub floor wasn’t yet dry enough.

No that’s a latex smoothing compound. The builders do the screed

Rob1979... thanks for clarifying. So you feel that I should have checked the screed was suitable for the latex compound rather than the fitter? How would I know that? I’m not cross here, I just want to be armed with facts before we get it sorted out. He seems a really nice guy and I don’t want to stitch him up if that is unfair.

He should have asked the questions, what type of screed is it and how long has it been down, first and foremost. IF he was supplying the latex.

There are different latex compounds suitable for different screeds. All I’m saying Is don’t just presume it’s blown because the screed was wet. It could be a case that all he needed to use was a moisture tolerant latex, or one suitable for gypsum. It does make all the difference to a floor failing or not.

We have two different testing machines here, one which is just pressed against the screed and goes through any floor covering and will tell you it’s too damp more often than not. The other one we drill into the top inch of the subfloor and insert probes, that is the best tester.

Like I said it’s a really grey area. We would be back in a shot to sort it, if we hadn’t tested it and it was damp, or if we had used the wrong latex on the screed. Unfortunately if someone is doing a lay only job, you are not likely to get that kind of back up. We have been in business for over 65 years and our reputation is worth more to us than replacing a few meters of LVT. If he has a good reputation then I’m sure he will come back and sort it, but it all depends on what the situation was, a surface DPM can be really expensive, especially if you were trying to save a few pounds by buying materials yourself. We do not do lay only, we will only ever supply and fit so as much as possible is in our hands in case anything does go wrong.

Thank you for all your advice. It makes sense. I fear for the guy that it is probably his fault. He is back today doing the carpet and was shocked at the state of the floor. He is definitely prepared to make it right.... I just sense he is concerned of the cost of the replacement lvt and therefore is angling towards a responsibility shift to save him having to pay for the new stuff. The only material I have supplied is the actual lvt (polyflor expona bevel line). Do independent fitters have insurance that they could claim on? I’m feeling bad for the guy!

It's 100% the installers issue unfortunately. All lvt manufacturers insist on moisture readings being taken and recorded, this would be the first question asked if it went to court. His insurance would not cover it as it would be deemed that he has not followed the correct protocol for installing the flooring. If the issue is incorrect latex for the subfloor, again this is an installer error, no grey area at all, he just has to suck it up.

Flooring installer for 18 years.

The grey area is that firstly, the contract has been split, the installer has not supplied the flooring and therefore cannot be certain of where it has come from, how it has been stored etc. The second and most importantly we have no idea of the circumstances, the OP was clearly looking to save money by buying the materials themselves, so the likely hood is that the installers they used are one man bands and do not even own a moister tester, and are unlikely to know the different screeds etc. On that basis you take a certain degree of risk.

Did the builder or OP push for completion? Was a waiver signed? What about the fitters terms and conditions? All things we don’t know.

Would we as a company rectify the issue, of course. But we wouldn’t of had an issue in the first place, we wouldn’t have fitted any materials we didn’t supply, and we wouldn’t have been anywhere near the cost that has probably been paid. I’m afraid it is a case of you get what you pay for.

Like I said, very grey area.

Director of a 65 year old flooring contractors having worked up from an apprentice over 22 years.

All the above is irrelevant. A disclaimer is not worth the paper it's written on, the installer is the expert not the customer, he should know what products to use and to check for damp and to refuse to do a job if he doesn't want it biting him on the arse. Whether he is a one man band or a well established ltd company the rules of installation are the same. Ask someone who specialises in cases like this ie Sid or Matt Bourne, he honestly hasn't got a leg to stand on.

You cannot pin that on the floor layer until you know all of the facts.

Why does the OP assume it’s damp? Maybe the floor layer did test the screed, it was wet but the OP was not willing to pay for a DPM to cut costs. You simply do not know the circumstances of what was agreed and what went on, to point the sole blame at the floor layer.

Like I said, if it was us it would be rectified, but at the same time it wouldn’t have happened in the first place. And if we weren’t happy we would refuse the job, but not every person can afford to do that.

All I’m saying is I don’t agree with putting it on someone when you don’t know the full story. There are a hell of a lot of variables that we simply do not know.

In a court of law the only thing to take in to account is that the installer (the flooring expert) has done the job, if it has not been fitted to British standards and/or the manufacturers specification then the floor layer is responsible. I know it's harsh but agreeing to lowering your standards to win a job or keep a customer happy is short term gain for a whole lot of pain and an expensive lesson learned.

OP have a look at theflooringforum.com, the site owner is very well respected in the industry, runs a training school for flooring installers and his father is a often a witness in court cases where floors have failed. If you want unbiased advice I would suggest asking the question there.

Thanks for your comments, they are very interesting. It is fair to comment that people don’t know all the facts, however I have tried to mention everything I feel is relevant, as I originally posted to try and get an honest view. The insinuation that just because I bought my own lvt means I have gone for a cheap unprofessional install is a little harsh. I have followed all the advice I have been given and not tried to cut any corners to save money. To add more info, the installer came back with a digital hygrometer yesterday and I have been taking readings for him. They have been 82% and 86%. I don’t know yet what that means. I will take a look at the forum you suggested, thanks.

The maximum allowed residual humidity for most adhered flooring is 75%, (real wood is even less tolerant) there are levelling compounds that's have an inbuilt DPM or separate surface dpms that can be applied to overcome this prior to install. In all circumstances the damp test has to be the first thing done, even more so on a new extension.

Debaser74 thank you.

You say that there is underfloor heating. Was it switched off at time of installation? Also after installation it needs to be turned on and up from very low to high gradually over a few days as turning up too quickly can also cause this problem.

Its worth remembering that when the underfloor heating is turned on this will force moisture upwards through the screed. This has the same effect as hydrostatic pressure. Most manufacturers are now saying to leave the underfloor heating on low during installation.

Unfortunately for the fitter he should of investigated and asked the right questions from day one especially with it being a new extension..
E.g how long has the concrete subfloor been down, is it concrete or anhydrite etc.
If he's doing lvt regular the fitter should own a moisture meter and/or humidity hoods/sleeves.
I fit lvt day in/day out and am a Nicf lvt Master fitter plus a one man band as Rob put it.
Whether or not you supplied the product is irrelevant. He took charge of the floor and installed it on a wet concrete slab.
Hopefully the fitter will do the right thing and hold his hands up. If not you can contact the Nicf or Floorskills training centre for independent inspection.
Hope you get it sorted.

Universal, High Temperature (HT) or Epoxy adhesives must be used

This is taken directly from the Karndean website,

The underfloor heating must be switched off 48 hours before, during, and 48 hours after the installation, then temperature gradually increased (typically 3°C/hr) to desired warmth.