listed building purchase advice

[iheartoldhouses]

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Ah, okay, I think it just wont let me link as I'm a new user. Here was my message that got deleted, without rightmove link:

A Grade II listed farmhouse has come up for sale and I think it looks really nice.

However, it's large, we're not made of money (although both in steady careers), and I want to be aware of the risks and expenses before going in.

It looks like it has been modified extensively on the interior - only the walls and windows on one side seem to be original. Everything needs a bit of an update inside, but the layout seems ok. We wouldn't plan to add any extensions.

My worry would be it would be quite cold as it's so open plan. I can't get a good look at that fireplace but it doesn't look like it would be an original.

How do I find out what's protected and what's not? Would this come up as part of the legal searches? I'd probably like to move radiators around, is that kind of things usually permitted? How about replacing a non-original fireplace with a wood burning stove? And putting a greenhouse in the garden, would that likely cause trouble?

Myself and my partner would be very willing in theory to take on the responsibility and some (significant?) extra expense of being a custodian to a piece of history, but equally I would hate to live in a perpetually cold house, so would need at least the sitting room to be warm in winter.

Has anyone got any tips for what to look out for when we go to view it? We've had a mooch around outside but not had a look inside yet.

Also any other general comments or advice about listed buildings would be greatly appreciated. I don't really know where to start. Any negative comments about any of it also welcome!

Thanks!

PS - if anyone can link, its on rightmove in Mottram, Hyde, 3 bed on Hillend, £350k

houselink here

Looks nice, don't know the answers to your questions though! I think it's just the exterior for a G2 listed (my dad recently bought one) but I might be wrong. Await better informed responses!

Is this is www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-80055500.html

It’ll all be protected. A listing always covers the entire building and it’s curtilage (any adjacent buildings)

Even hideous modern additions will need listed building consent to alter

Historic England website has a good section giving information on ways to insulate old buildings

House

We purchased a G2 listed Georgian farmhouse last year and I had the same worries. You can check the listed buildings register maintained by Historic England to see what is and isn't covered: Search

I found a good source of information was the Listed Buildings Owners club LPOC Grade 2 is usually just the exterior plus interior original features such as staircases. The listing registration will tell you if it's more than that. But if you're planning to do work on the property you may need listed building consent from your local council anyway.

House looks gorgeous and, to my untrained eye, seems to have been refurbished entirely.

We had a full structural survey by a surveyor who specialised in old buildings. Our conveyancing took ages because of the sheer weight of listed building consents and planning applications the conveyancer had to go through.

There are others on here who are renovating listed houses and probably have far better practical advice than me.

You will need to allow for higher home insurance as many won't insure old and/or listed building and also our heating bill is, unsurprisingly, higher than it would be for a new build.

Thanks! Yes, that's the badger.

How does the getting permission work? Is it like planning permission, and would it incur a charge each time? Is this as detailed as painting a room or replacing a plug socket? I'm just trying to get my head around the practicalities of it all.

Great advice, thank you.

I found info here

Location
Statutory Address: OLD HILLEND FARMHOUSE AT HOME FARM, HILLEND LANE

The building or site itself may lie within the boundary of more than one authority.

District: Tameside (Metropolitan Authority)

National Grid Reference: SJ 99082 94478

Details
LONGDENDALE HILLEND LANE SJ 99 SE (north-west side) 7/53 Old Hillend Farmhouse at Home Farm

• II

Farmhouse, now barn and stable. 1604 on door lintel although successively altered in later centuries. Coursed rubble, watershot stone and brick with slate and graduated stone slate roof. 2 storeys with a central 2-storey porch and a l-bay cottage added as a wing to the left in C18. Stone plinth and quoins. Central porch has a chamfered door surround with dated lintel, a continuous first floor band, 2-light double-chamfered stone mullion first floor window (mullion removed) and a coped gable with kneelers incorporating a dovecote. Left of the porch are two 3-light chamfered stone mullion ground floor window and 2 flat-faced 3-light first floor windows. C19 doors have been inserted to left and right and the right has two 2-light windows (one with mullion removed). Two 5-light double-chamfered mullion windows to right elevation. Hipped roof of C20. The C18 cottage has a door and a 2-light flat-faced mullion window on each floor. The internal walls and floors and the original roof construction have all been removed. The rear wall is C20 brick.

Listing NGR: SJ9908294478

Legacy
The contents of this record have been generated from a legacy data system.

Legacy System number: 212511

Legacy System: LBS

Legal
This building is listed under the Planning (Listed Buildings and Conservation Areas) Act 1990 as amended for its special architectural or historic interest.

Sounds like it has been well and truly altered over the years!

LBC is similar to planning permission in that it’s a local authority decision. There is no fee though for a submission. Anything extensive might need plans drawing up. Or to replace a window or door etc you’d need to supply precise details of the moulding etc.

Any change to the fabric of the building will need consent. Painting inside wouldn’t, a new kitchen or bathroom wouldn’t unless you we’re knocking holes in walls. Then it would. Any ‘material change’ is the phrase you’ll hear

The Listing description is just that. The whole building is protected (although the features mentioned in the listing are unlikely to be given consent for alterations).
Any alterations to the actual physical structure of the building will require consent. There will be detailed requirements as to which materials etc can be used. You will get to know the local Conservation Officer very well. You will need to check whether an application will be required for nearly everything, as any unauthorised works can be liable to fines and in extreme circumstances imprisonment!
Any alterations to buildings in the garden, boundary walls etc will also be liable to control.

Okay, thanks, that's really helpful. I think the first port of call would be to familiarise myself with the local planners, then, if we get it. Good to know there's no charge for communication! They're a friendly bunch round here, so hopefully they'd be a good source of advice rather than just a bureaucrat. There are lots of listed buildings around here and they seem to have building work going on regularly so stuff must get approved.

If it's open plan and you are worried about it being cold, you can always replace the windows. However as the building is listed this may not be possible / have restrictions.

Is it single glazed? You may have to look into the restrictions but sometimes you can replace windows in a listed building as long as they maintain the look and character. Although I'm not 100% sure so don't take my word for it!

There are lots of window styles now out there that are double glazed, upvc designs but have been built to replicate timber for period builds.

KirstyVal - you are correct. Well, in my experience you are correct. I live in a grade 11 listed building (1450's) and successfully replaced my wooden casements with double glazed units. The replacements were wood with double glazed panels. I had to prove the specification of the windows would look the same as the original (it was to do with the width of the glazing bars). I have 4 bifold units and these are triple glazed. So it is possible but you have to research the windows and obviously can't chuck in a UPVC montrosity (!).

Looking at the pictures: has it been altered without permission? It seems a bit devoid of period features in some respects. I would check the current owners have the necessary permissions to do what they have done.

In our G2 the previous owners were given permission to replace the side and rear elevation windows with double glazed wooden casement units (though as Cosmos says, not bog standard double glazed) but was only given permission to secondary glaze the front elevation's original casement windows.

They also had a tumultuous time getting consent to replace a horrible old 1970's wooden front door (which was there before the place was listed) with a far more in keeping front door. There was about a half an inch of back and forth communications for that in our conveyancing!

The EA says it has some “original windows”. I bet it doesn’t! It has replacement windows and a new gas boiler and gas central heating. Why would it be cold? The fireplace is hideous. Definitely not original in the lounge.

YogaDrone I had to really fight to get an old crittel (is that how you spell it) window replaced in a old out building. We were converting it into an office and there was a completed rotten old metal framed beaded window that they didn't want us to replace - it was about 100 years old so nowhere near as old as the property. I got a quote for restoration and it was going to be about £500 i think or something equally stupid. They then said I could replace it and I have a lovely little wooden window in there now. I also had a 4ft high bathroom door (you had to bend in half to get in the old bathroom) which they insisted I keep. I refused to put in back in a doorway as I am 5ft 6 and husband 5ft 10 - they eventually agreed I could take the door out but I have to store it and keep it - it is in the garage loft! Quite ridiculous really

Yeah @BubblesBuddy I'll definitely be checking they got permission for the changes, but I'm pretty sure they will have. All the listed buildings in our village have been butchered horribly. Also, maybe it wont be cold, it just looks very cold compared to my cosy old mid terraced cottage. And yes that fireplace looks hideous.

I think by "original windows" the EA means the mullions. The actual windows can't possibly be original (just looking at photo 6) but still may pre-date the listing. The rear elevation seems to belong to a totally different house doesn't it?

If there are lots of listed buildings locally iheartoldhouses it might be worth having a chat with the conservation officer before putting in an offer. If s/he has been around a while they may remember the refurbishment work done in the late 90's. Alternatively, it might not have been listed until after all the work, hence the mishmash?

I was told that that there was a country wide sweep of old, or unique, houses done in the mid-1980's and listings were slapped on fairly indiscriminately. Properties weren't properly inspected at all, planners just drove around and identified houses to list based on what they could see from their drive-bys. I think our house was a victim of this methodology because the listing is ridiculously generic.

I also (probably naively) thought that Conservation Officers were supposed to enable owners to maintain their G2 listed properties. The theory being that making owners lives hell results in work not being done and the building becoming derelict over time which isn't the point of listing the properties in the first place. It really doesn't sound like they did much "enabling" with you Cosmos. A 4 foot high bathroom door is ridiculous! As is requiring repair of a non-original out building window. I'm glad they backed down, at least partially, on these.

Looks like it was given listed status in 1986 @YogaDrone so you're probably right.

It rather suggests that all that work the details mention from 1998 will have had planning or listed building consent then Iheartoldhouses. Your conveyancing could be exciting

Ihesrtoldhouses. I feel I was a bit blunt earlier! I looked at the pictures and it didn’t seem like a particularly sympathetic modernisation for a number of reasons. Therefore I’m not sure your planning authority is as demanding as they are here! Of course they should have permission but some people do internal alterations and don’t ask anyone. It can then fall on the new owner to rectify the situation.

No worries @BubblesBuddy - I appreciate blunt!

Yes, it likely will @YogaDrone. I used a local conveyancer on my current property and they seemed to know all the quirks about stuff in the area, so my first port of call would be to go to them and see if they've handled other listed properties in the area. I've also dig around a bit and found out the history of the sale, conversion, etc so I feel a bit more prepared now too.

Thanks everyone for the help and advice!

Good luck Iheartoldhouses

I think the first port of call would be to familiarise myself with the local planners, then, if we get it. Good to know there's no charge for communication!

Not necessarily true. While there is no charge for making a listed building application, many councils now charge for advice - mine was about £120 to have the conservation officer come over to discuss what we would and would not be able to do. And they no longer speak to the public on the phone so there is no way around it.

Period property forum is good for more specific bits of advice once you have moved. Definitely check that listed building consent was acquired for the internal remodel or you could have to reinstate the old layout using the original building techniques which could be ridiculously expensive.