No visible RSJ - possible?

[FrankieChips]

Hi mumsnetters. I am worrying myself sick that my house might fall down. We bought our house 2 years ago and the living room, kitchen and dining room had been knocked through to create one space.

It had been done by the owners previous to the lady we bought it from (she informed us of this and we also found the old ad online). Our soliciter brought it up and she said the previous owners had told her Building regs hadn't been needed. We were in love with the place and decided that if had been ok for (at least) the past 8+ years then it should be fine. I have since found out that problems can arrise at any time with this sort of work.

What concerns me is that there used to be a wall between the kitchen and dining room but there doesn't seem to be a visible RSJ here. Shouldn't there be a boxed in length across the ceiling?

There does appear to be one between the living room and dining room.

I'd like to add photos but my DP wouldn't be happy :(

It is possible to conceal and rsj. There would have been some work needed from the floor above to do that so you could see if floorboards have been disturbed just above it? You definitely need building regs for that kind of work.... we just had it done.

Did you have a structural survey? If not I would STRONGLY advise that you enlist a competent surveyor asap or a reputable builder

Cripes! Thanks gruffalocake2. It's possible this has been done that way as the floor upstairs seems to be 'higher' if that makes sense? The survey didn't bring anything up but they did say we should check that there were buildings regs done. There are cracks in the house but the survey said they weren't structural. We were so invested in the house at the time we thought it would be ok. Argh! I think I should get someone to come and check to be sure.

Thanks Seventiescarpetswirls. Yes, we had a survey done and they couldn't see any problems but weren't able to check throughly as it would mean taking up the carpet and laminate flooring in a bedroom. They recommended we check for the buildings regs which hadn't been done it turns out. It would have been done over 8 years ago (possibly more). It's a 1930s end terrace house.

I would ring building regs anonymously and discuss or get a surveyor/builder round. You can get retrospective building regs, just costs a little more.

Get it inspected now and if it’s got problems at least you know, if not, youll have the certificate for the work

There may or may not be an RSJ - they're not always visible if they've been hidden well, rather than boxed in.

We discovered a lack of RSJ in our house when we came to remove a stud wall - started taking wall down - realised it was bowing slightly. Got builders to come and put in an RSJ which whoever had taken wall out previously had failed to do. Thankfully house hadn't collapsed in the meantime!

Is there a wall above the wall that has been removed? Do the floor joists span onto this section? (They normally run perpendicular to the floorboards if those are visible).

Yes, building regs should have been obtained for the work. But not having a beam in one spot doesn't necessarily mean it's dodgy - it could easily have been a non-loadbearing wall that was removed. If you're concerned get a structural engineer to have a look.

We don't have one in our kitchen/diner. We thought we would but it turns out that wall wasn't a supporting wall and was just bricks laid on the floorboards. Meant the work was cheaper!
Should say, our house is a 1930s semi

Just a comment to say when I had a small extension done I wasn't prepared to do it unless the RSJ could be concealed.
It cost me extra but is was a small room and a RSJ across the middle would have been horrible.
So it is possible, but not having building regs is a big red flag. I'm surprised your solicitor didn't flag this and get it indemnified by the seller.

Thanks everyone! @Chasingsquirrels. Our soliciter did flag it and asked for indemnity but the seller refused as she had not been the one who had done the work (which is true) and also because we knocked the price down due to other issues with the garage roof at the back of the property (not connected to the house). I've added the floor plan. The quality isn't great though.

@CaurnieBred apparently the previous owners had told our seller that it wasn't a supporting wall but they could have just said that. The survey doesn't mention if the walls were supporting or not.

We have a hidden RSJ in our kitchen. I’m sure of that because we put it in. It’s a big old job though but perfect possible.

I would normally expect the floor joists to be running left to right as you look on the plan. As others have said it is possible that the beam was hidden within the floor zone. Easiest way to check is to lift one of the floorboards above it and have a look.

If the person who did it had told the previous owners that it wasn’t a supporting wall, then there’s no chance she’s put a hidden rsj in. She didn’t think it was needed. I’d get a structural engineer out to look at if.

It’s the same kind of house we used to have. We were infact planning on having the same thing done before we decided to move house. As I recall it didn’t require a big steel- the wall was carrying the brick wall above which was a single skin, but didn’t carry on to the foundations underneath, so only required a 125 or 150mm steel (as opposed to a 250 or 300mm) to be put in, which would be able to be concealed in the floor. I think the engineers report said because that wall doesn’t support the roof there isn’t that much weight on it. Yours may well be different but I should think that the only way to satisfy yourself will be with a structural engineer coming around to examine the situation.

I echo what pp said above. Go upstairs above that divide and attempt to lift some floorboards. You should be able to see if there’s something there or not in very short order. Your engineer will want to look anyway- if you can show him access with a lifted board it’ll make his job quicker.

Thanks @Tubeworker. That has put my mind at ease. I am trying to convince my DP to get it checked but he thinks I'm just worrying when there's no need. There doesn't seem to be any problems. No bowing on the ceiling, no concerning cracks (just hairline on the kitchen ceiling that are mentioned on the report). Will try to see the floorboards above.

Thank you so much to everyone who had replied. I am very grateful for everyone's input. This is our first home (and hopefully forever home) and we did rule with our heart when buying as it is such a lovely house. First time buyers! Don't rule with your heart!

Knock on the wall between the 2 bedrooms above the wall that has been removed... I would assume they are brick.. If so it is 90% structural... there should be a steel

do the floorboards n the upstairs rooms run front to back or side to side?

It's possible for a partition wall to be built off a floor, this is still done with lightweight partition walls but in the 1930's it was often done with a plastered breeze wall, for example a bathroom wall.

But anyway, you ought to have someone competent inspect it and ascertain how it is done; after which they can decide if it is adequate.

An experienced local builder could see what they've done, but may be more optimistic than an engineer, since houses rarely fall down.

Just pay the 50/60 for an indemnity?

An indemnity might help with the costs of defending an enforcement notice, but it won't help if the wall is unsupported and falls through the ceiling.