Possible boundary dispute?

[GiraffeObsessedBaby]

We bought our house on plan. We know the builders messed up a lot as we've had to deal with a lot of issues over the years and now they might have really caused a big problem.

We have a flat next door over an access archway. The flat has a little paved yard about 15ft by 6ft. In the yard they have a door to storage under their flats stairs. They also have our gas and electric metres so we have right of access but they keep padlocking the gate.

When we renewed our mortgage my husband checked the deeds and according to our deeds we own most of this yard. My husbands paid to check this properly on land registry. We don't need it we have a more than ample garden but he's determined to claim it.

I'm scared to try and do this as we want to sell next year and don't want anything to put that in danger or cause animosity with neighbours.

I've attached a really quick crappy diagram. The black lines show as is. The pink highlighted bit is what is supposedly our land with the orange highlighted bit being what they should have.

Anyone any experience or advice am I worrying for nothing?

It will come up on the searches during purchase so you are best to sort it out now

Has your husband downloaded the neighbours deeds to see what they say?

Your diagram is crap (sorry!) but does their gate prevent access to the whole yard, but they only own part of it so they are in effect barring your access to your own land? Is that what you mean? Also, what is on the other side of the yard, where you have written gate and our meters?

is there a fence round the property that they claim - if so - any idea how long it has been there? Boundary ownership cases make lawyer rich. If the boundary has been fenced around for several years you will have an almost impossible time getting it back & if it was 12 years even if you went to court & had proof the court would still consider them owners by default. Its a #### but that the way it is. (bad experience here)

seriously chasing this kind of thing costs 10 of thousands of pounds if your neighbour disagrees & why would he change his mind?

Land is valuable and it's much better to own a piece of land you need access over for something of yours, i.e. the meters, than just have a right of access.

Are the people who live in the flat owner occupiers or tenants? If they are tenants they might have been given incorrect information by the LL to make the flat a more attractive proposition.

Depends -but tell them nicely to stop padlock the gate or give you a key withinX days, as you have rights of access. If they don't with fair warning, next stage is to tell them you will have to chop the padlocks off or add your own.

What do their deeds say? right across the yard to storage lockers?

It's a stupid design on the plan as it looks like you both need access and it is a common area?

If this is the case speak nicely to your neighbours and try and sort it amicably. If they won't give you a key. Add your own padlock and chop theirs off and give them a key to new padlock. -but try and resolve this first.

Sorry I know the diagram is crap had a stroppy one year old hanging off my arm lol.

Ok so the yard with the black line around it has our house on one side, a car park on the unmarked side, our garden on the side labelled and then a wall with their storage. Essentially it's a separate "garden" currently.

The fence has been there for 5 years as we bought on plan as did they and we literally both moved in the same day. The yard is not shared according to current usage, we have right of access for our metres. We've never had a problem before but the owner moved out last year and now rents it out. The current tenant has done out the yard with a bench and bbq and it's a tad odd but he's now padlocked it so we have to climb the 6ft fence to get our readings despite us asking several times.

We definitely own it according to land registry. We've looked at both sets of deeds. Their deeds say they have a very small portion. Basically the square where the hate opens onto the door.

It really does terrify me that if my husband does get bullheaded and challenges this it's going to seriously put our move at risk and we NEED to move. Our house is far too small to live in practically anymore.

It's more of a problem for the owner of the flat if he wanted to sell, rather than for you.
If you are positive that you own most of yard and have right of access thru the bit you don't own, agree to cut off their padlock and replace with yours, giving them a key.
You could also arrange to install smart meters to get round the meter reading orobkem

Take the deeds for both, show the new renter that he can't lock you out of your own property and he only has access to the storage, not a BBQ area for his own personal use. See what happens then.

You need to contact the owner and tell him that a) it's not his yard and b) his tenant is blocking you from your own property.

You could offer to sell the yard to flats landlord and use the money to move the meters out to elsewhere

It's better to sort it out now than wait for it to get picked up by potential buyers.

It's confusing that you own most of it and have a right access over the bit the flat owns by the gate. The tenants probably don't understand the situation. Start by showing them both title registers and plans and asking them to remove the padlock. You can then escalate it to the LL if they don't unlock the gate.

I would get legal advice before doing anything. It needs sorting before you sell but you would have to declare a dispute. You also need to sort it before more time goes by as the clock for adverse possession is ticking.

Thank you this has all been really helpful! And helped me convince dh that we need to see a solicitor.

This won't necessarily be a dispute - it's quite likely a case of the tenants not understanding what land is included with their tenancy. Once it's pointed out, the situation may well change. Having a discussion with a neighbour does not a dispute make. You don't need legal advice to start a dialogue. It might be easier over a cup of tea or a drink though.

Have you spoken to the landlord? I'd avoid solicitors until you've really exhausted the "talking to each other" routes. Do you know why the tenants are so keen for it to stay padlocked?

It's the perfect time of year to invite neighbours over for Xmas drinks...

Solicitit’s dont need to escalate things though. They could just advise the op so her conversations with the neighbours are informed ones.

Christmas drinks in the rain and the cold?!

It's unlikely imo that a conversation showing them the title registers and plans with lead to a huge row with the OP and her husband.

The OP says they've asked several.times for the padlock to be removed, but we don't know on what basis and with the evidence they have now of their ownership, they are in a stronger position.

If the tenant won't back down and the landlord won't listen, they could remove their fence leaving just the gate and posts. The tenant isn't going to be there permanently and the LL isn't going to want an ongoing legal row over a place he doesn't live in.

Put the brakes on and breathe.

Do not start with a solicitor, start with talking to the neighbour showing them the title plan asking for access to the meters. The second you take this down the legal route you will have to declare it as a boundary dispute and if someone posted on MN that a house had one the majority of us would tell them the hills are ----> that way.

Unless you have actually lived through a boundary dispute, even one that surveyors and the neighbours agree that the land is yours it doesn't mean they just hand the land back and my god whilst they fight you on it the police cannot do anything as it is a civil matter and even years later when it has all calmed down and the neighbours stop calling you dickhead, wanker and bitch in front of your children any time you dare go into your garden, you still have to declare it to sell. And yes I did declare it.

I am assuming the only outdoor space the flat has is that yard area. So the landlord will not just hand it over as it is an extra that he has benefited from for 5 years. You need to pop onto GardenLaw forum for boundary disputes but also fences to see how many years these things can roll on for and how much you have to live with whilst it goes on, never mind the cost.

The solicitor doesn't have to live in your house whilst you dispute it.

And quite frankly, the fact that you didn't even spot this yourselves for 5 fucking years is your own fault. You were more than happy with the way this all played out until the new tenants moved in. Happy with the garden, happy with the position of the meters (which I would never have been and would have had them moved onto/into my property.) And happy until the remortgage came up.

You are looking to move, you cannot move whilst a boundary dispute is unresolved. Theses things can take years. Why would you want to put yourself through that? Moving is stressful enough, don't put off any potential buyers.

My friend went to view a new build estate. A person who originally lived next to open fields where the new houses now stood had a big sign in his garden for all to see that said boundary dispute!

I have lived through a boundary dispute. As above go to Garden Law.

My new neighbour claimed t (the day he moved in)that an 8 inch strip of our garden (been in the house 20 years) was actually his.

I ended up on anti depressants, suffering from stress and anxiety, nearly lost my job due to the effect on my health. It cost money we didn't have. Solicitor confirmed land was ours but with legal fees mounting we gave in and split the land. Which meant a whole mature border was ripped out, destroying years of hard work. We are moving because of the vile neighbour next door who was willing to put us through this to get a 4 inch strip of land.

So think carefully before you embroil yourself in all this.

Go to Garden Law as above. If the deeds are clear on the matter, and there are no grey areas, then speak to the neighbours and show them.the deeds.

Any dispute that can be proved has to be declared. For what it's worth, we declared our grizzly dispute and sold twice (1st fell through, nothing to do with dispute.)