Please help- exchange this week! Indemnity policy

[Christmascookiesmmmm]

Hi,

We’re buying a house that has no building regs or paperwork for kitchen extension, removal of load bearing wall and chimney breast, and boarding if loft (not sold as habitable living space)

All this work is over 10 years old so the sellers have said they won’t orivide an indemnity policy , do we need one? Thanks

Did you have a survey? If so, did the surveyor identify any problems with the work carried out? Chances are if there was any issue for work done more than 10 years ago it would be evident by now.

The only thing an indemnity policy covers you for is losses and expenses arising out of enforcement action, not any loss arising because of a defect in the work. The chances of any enforcement action being taken after such a long time is incredibly low.

However, if you are taking a mortgage your lender may insist on a policy being taken out.

Thanks so much @Mildura! Yes we did have a homebuyers survey and they said there was no sign of stress at all in any of the areas, but we should seek building regs or get a structural engineer (I guess they say this to cover their backs?)

We then researched structural engineer reports but they said they’d need someone to drill a hole in the wall in order to see if there was a beam and the seller wasn’t too happy with that, so my partner went along with a metal detector and found out there definitely is a beam where there should be, so we ended up bypassing the structural engineer. I still feel a bit sick that we don’t know for absolute sure but as you say there are no problems after 10 years.

Checked with solictor who says they don’t need to tell the mortgage lender since it’s over 10 years old.

So you think we will be ok?

Thanks again for your reply!!

I would get an indemnity policy.

I had to get one when I sold my last House, due to lack of building regs being followed when bricking up a door. I think it cost me £80. I would be very unhappy with the vendors refusing to cover this cost if they had carried out the works.

But at that sort of cost, it's better safe than sorry.

If the surveyor can't spot any issue then the chances are it's fine, and they're backside covering by suggesting structural engineer/retrospective building regs approval.

Personally I think an indemnity policy is fairly pointless in your situation.

I agree it's pointless. Our house was the same but as I'm an engineer I was able to assess the risks myself and we also didn't need to inform the bank. The only thing that concerned me was fireproofing so when we did some replastering elsewhere we also added extra plaster board over the steel so it would have fire protection that was compliant with current regulations.

It’s not true to say that just because defects have not showed up in 10 years that all will continue to be ok. Houses can get subsidence or heave after 50 years! You have no idea if the foundations are suitably designed, if the extension is joined to the existing house properly or what arrangement has been made for the drains. You have not had an expert look at any of this. Or the chimney. When you sell, you might not find a buyer so cavalier with their money.

As you have ignored advice there isn’t much more to be said other then buyer beware.

Omg @BubblesBuddy you’ve terrified me :’( this is exactly what I was worried about but my partner didn’t see the point in doing the structural engineer report :( I feel really really stressed now. Should we get the structural engineer after all?!?!

I'd want the council to do a regularisation or get a approved inspector to do a report on the issues. However you have left it too late if you want to exchange this week.

Well I’m sufficiently stressed out so will instruct a structural engineer tomorrow. Will they be able to do anything without removing plaster or do I have to hire builder too to remove plaster and make it worthwhile? As I said, there’s definitely a steel beam of the right shape. And how do they tell if the chimney breast removal has been done properly? Also how do they tell if there are enough steel ties for extension? Is drilling a hole enough? @EggsRoyale I’d be super grateful to hear from you again with you being an engineer!!

Hoping it won’t annoy anyone too much if we don’t exchange this week as there’s no chain either side and the owner has already moved out..

Also, will report from structural engineer costing about £330 for these 4 issues (extension, removal of wall, removal of chimney breast and loft boarding) go into detail similar to a full structural survey? V annoyed as I wanted to have full structural done in the first place as it’s a Victorian terrace and I knew there’s an extension, but estate agent made me feel silly and said ‘you don’t need a full structural, no one gets them unless you’re buying a detached 400 year old farmhouse!’
So we ended up getting homebuyers survey which just basically asks us to get someone else to look at stuff :(

Good luck finding a decent structural engineer in a day or even a week or month).

I'm really cross on your behalf that the estate agent bullied you into not having a building survey. I've recently bought an Edwardian terrace and didn't hesitate to get a building survey.

Ahh :’( I can’t sleep I’m so stressed! I am really really annoyed too @AntiHop :( I’d done loads of reading around it and had settled on full structural and they made me feel stupid- I thought they must know what they’re talking about :/ I have a problem with just thinking everyone knows better than me.

The house has been really well looked after and the survey did say they saw no signs of stress. They estimated the extension to be 1990s. Am I just stressing for no reason and should we go ahead with exchange anyway?

It’s actually Edwardian sorry not Victorian, not sure whether that makes much difference ..

We have also been to see house 5 times (estate agents doing viewings and only have limited availability so we couldn’t both get to all the viewings due to work commitments) and we took along my partner’s dad one time who has some experience with building work, and also my stepdad who also has some experience with building work, and they both said they didn’t see the point of getting a structural engineer. Stepdad looked in loft in particular and said all the structural beams still in place.

I also was made to feel stupid by estate agents for this- she said ‘is there a reason you’ve been to see the property this many times?’ When I was booking another viewing- I explained that it’s the biggest financial commitment we’re ever going to make and as a lot of paperwork is missing we need to bring different people in to make assessments. I said I thought it’s normal for people to want to see their house more than once. She said ‘no people normally go once and them one more time to measure up’. Her tone was so condescending and I actually started crying on the phone (think a mixture of work stress and house stress). And I was really annoyed as as far as I understand it they get paid ££££s to basically just do viewings- we were the 2nd to view and offered straight away so really they haven’t had to do much work!!! I know they work for the seller but we’ve been good buyers otherwise, offer accepted September and I’ve been pushing things along, we didn’t ask for reduction despite a few issues coming up on survey, so I’d have thought she should try and keep us happy!!

Are there any examples of problems arising in houses from work over 10years old? I’ve done so much googling but found none. @BubblesBuddy can you share some examples of things happening after 50 years? And surely if foundations were not well designed it would have been obvious in homebuyers?

Also days away from Exchange, but with issues on my Searches, so I feel your pain.

From your postings it is clear that this issue is causing you a level of stress that will only be resolved by having either a full structural survey or a survey by a structural engineer.

That is your right and I wouldn't hesitate to insist on it if I was you. The alternative is that you will worry for years into the future and never settle in your new home.

I doubt very much if the Vendor will pull out if you decide to do that. It is three weeks before Christmas, who else is going to buy there house at this time in the year?

If they do get funny about it then perhaps it is a warning that they know there are problems and perhaps you will have a lucky escape. I had something similar 20 years ago, offered on a newly renovated barn, everything looked perfect but I couldn't get over a few niggles about the Builders attitude. Had a full survey the week of Exchange only to discover structural defects in the outer walls caused by the Builders shortcuts.

I drive past that barn regularly and constantly reflect on how grateful I am for those niggles.

Their, not there, Sorry !!

What is still commonly referred to as a 'full structural survey' is really known as a buildings survey. The term full structural survey is not generally used by chartered surveyors, as it was thought the use of the word 'structural' was somewhat ambiguous.

Without removing some of the plaster to expose the size and type of RSJ in place, and digging some sort of inspection hole to check the depth of the foundations, neither of which would be normal occurrences during a buildings survey, I'm not sure you'd have a great deal more information available than you have with your homebuyers.

If the sellers are not prepared to pay for an indemnity policy, which could easily be less than a couple of hundred pounds, I think they're unlikely to agree to chunks of the plaster being removed to check suitable support is in place for the removal of the chimney breast and load bearing wall. They may comply if they fear you might pull out of the sale however.

It might be wise to try and establish the exact circumstances of the work that has been carried out. Was it done whilst the current vendors owned the property? Did they have the inspector out at any stage and just didn't get the final sign off, or did no visits of any description take place?

It seems like you've had a survey and two relatives with some building experience look over the house, none of whom have raised any specific concerns.