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DIY Kitchens (again). Pricing...

50 replies

Faffandahalf · 13/11/2018 16:34

I know there are numerous threads about DIY kitchens but just want some more recent thoughts.

We have been looking at all the usual places: Howdens, Magnet, Ikea etc for a kitchen. It's a renovation of a new property.

I want a dark blue shaker style with an island.

I've read loads about DIY kitchens on here so was quite confident about going with it. Have been pricing up the Helmsley (still not sure about in frame and space/cleaning) and the Norton.

It's not as cheap as I was expecting. The Helmsley is coming up at 7.2 k and that's without end panels and plinths (I just can't get my head around the end panel measurements on the website at all. Have contacted the support team for help with this). The Norton is coming up at around 6k.

The end panels will add maybe another 500-1k on? I actually have no idea about this. Confused

Magnet quoted me a ridiculous 10k but then said they would match the DIY price! Their end panels come up to 1200k which means a price of around 7.5-8k total

I've attached a rough drawing of the layout with units and wondered if anyone had any info regarding pricing. Are these prices really good for the units we have?

I know nothing about kitchen prices. This is the first house where we aren't just living with an existing kitchen but getting to choose our own and I don't know what I'm doing!

Also am I even crazy for considering Howdens/Magnet instead of DIY anyway? Howdens quote was 5.5k total.

Thanks for reading. This was so long-winded. Any recent (or not so recent even!) experiences with DIY would be great Smile

DIY Kitchens (again). Pricing...
OP posts:
mumsolihull · 14/11/2018 18:23

Have you had a look at Units Online at all? We got our kitchen from them and they were fab. We've got a shaker style with a mixture of dark blue and light grey shaker units. They were very helpful, put together a design etc (we only did this after we were sure we were going to use them as cost £100 which they took off the cost of the kitchen). Showroom based in Taunton and we did go down to check it out in person. We love our kitchen! Cost just over 6k, then we bought the appliances from AO, and the worktop from a local stone company. Got about 7 quotes in total and was by far the cheapest. Will try to post a pic! Good luck, it's worth it in the end 😉

DIY Kitchens (again). Pricing...
ILoveAutum · 14/11/2018 18:23

DIY Kitchens showroom is definitely worth a visit. It’s 4 hours from me, I’ve been twice. I LOVE their navy blue kitchen in their showroom & would have ordered it there and then had if I could have blue (I can’t as it doesn’t go in the open plan space. Grr).

Both times I’ve been the staff have been excellent and very friendly. Maybe you caught someone on an off day.

They are great if you send an ‘order’ and your plan, with saying errr you seem to be missing xyz or did you not want plinths? Or whatever. I was there a LONG time both days I went and listened to a lot of conversations going on around me and they were great. I honestly can’t fault them.

The quality is MILES better than Benchmark/Wicks
and Howdens.

If you are nearby, the guys at Panelven are great and the girl (Heather?!) at Two Guys is great too.

If you’re nervous about measuring etc, then just get your fitter sorted first and they’ll help you too.

Diseno · 14/11/2018 18:35

would take a chippy hours to do that and when buying flat packe the holes for the cams are already in the mfc.
Blum on the other hand happen to actually be the market leader on hinges and drawer runners and also come with a life time guarentee and used by load of bespoke outfits.
Difference from getting blum drawers from the likes of Wickes/ Benchmarx, they use the older boxes with no design and round gallery rails where more upper places will use the Antaro or legrabox with glass or oak/walnut or stainless sides and supply hinge cover caps etc, the finishing touches so to speak

PurpleFlowersInMyHair · 14/11/2018 18:55

@Diseno you have a lot of knowledge of the differences between the kitchen companies- very impressive. How would you rank them in terms of quality and what is worth saving/ splurging on? Personally I’m aiming for the look of the Devol kitchens- darkest blue frame shaker doors. Ideally that we can paint. I would like something long lasting as it’s our forever home but not fussed about having veneer inside the cupboards. I might splash out on worktop and handles to get a higher end look

PurpleFlowersInMyHair · 14/11/2018 18:56

(When I say I want to paint them- I mean in the future when I’m bored of the colour or it goes out of fashion)

PurpleFlowersInMyHair · 14/11/2018 18:58

@mumsolihull your kitchen is beautiful- exactly the sort of look and style I’m after

wowfudge · 14/11/2018 19:01

For someone who hasn't seen them in the flesh so to speak Purple you seem determined to do down DIY Kitchens!

We did a lot of research and planning for our kitchen. We ended up using Magnet's design and re-creating it with DIY Kitchens' units because even with a supposed 75% discount off the units at Magnet, DIY were significantly cheaper. We did all the work on our kitchen and dining room, including vaulting a ceiling, removing a wall and putting steels in, plastering, flooring, complete kitchen, solid oak skirting, new lighting, composite island top and paying the various trades for £5k less than Magnet wanted for supplying and fitting the kitchen. Their quote was astronomical and the only way they could bring it down was by removing things!

We ended up ordering some more units from DIY because the builder put the plumbing for the island sink in the wrong place - there's no minimum order quantity if you need additional bits and pieces from them.

PurpleFlowersInMyHair · 14/11/2018 19:33

I’m not doing down DIYK at all! I said they are top of my list for my new kitchen Confused also I have seen them in the flesh - my friend has their shaker kitchen. I just haven’t been to their showroom. I’m still at the stage of considering/ comparing my options

Diseno · 14/11/2018 19:35

You will find most of Devol is smooth painted - either mdf or blow the bank maple, yet same finish.
Veneer carcass can add 5k to a kitchen over mfc size dependant
repainting isnt as easy as always sound esp on a smooth.
not may wood shakers come with a slimmer frame
Are you looking at an infame then?
Most frames will always be tulip wood, over time Hairline cracks on the joints. the door is either oak for grain protrusion or mdf for the smooth.
For that look i would have butt hinges, I would personally have dummy but hinges as i feel the look is good but i would rather the smooth soft close etc like attached

DIY Kitchens (again). Pricing...
Faffandahalf · 14/11/2018 19:45

mumsolihull. I am also looking at units online. Damn mumsnet has made me add them to the list!

Can I ask which range you have? It looks lovely. There’s a lot of options but not much info behind each one on the website.

Anyway I’ve sent over plans and a Magnet unit list as it says on the website they will do like for like quotes. That was the day before yesterday and they haven’t got back to me yet.

OP posts:
Faffandahalf · 14/11/2018 19:52

I don’t know if I should go for inframe or not. Worried about the space for inframe/getting in and out of cupboards. I’ve got to have a 500mm larder cupboard somewhere and worried it won’t be much use with inframe doors.
That’s all based on various threads I’ve read here.
So that’s the Helmsley.
Or the Norton which is non inframe but some people said it looked a bit ugly in person dues to having a wider frame (105
Instead of 85 I think).

Obviously I need to see them all in person which I haven’t done yet. I’m still smarting a bit at the cost perhaps unfairly.

I actually quite like the Magnet shaker. It’s a smooth finish obviously being MDF. Does anyone know anything about what the quality might be like with the Magnet?

OP posts:
AnnaMagnani · 14/11/2018 19:55

You don't need an appointment when you go to DIY Kitchens. We went - it's about that far from us. V busy even on a weekday.

You can do your plan there, or bring up and existing one. Attract the attention of a planner and they will sort you out. Expect to be there A LONG TIME if you do your plan there as it took us about an hour just to figure out how to out one unit on the planner Blush

However their planner solved a tricky problem for us in about a minute so could see the basis of their business model - almost everyone is capable of planning their own kitchen and they just step in to point out what you have abysmally wrong rather than waste time planning every single one.

It's also worth going as I completely changed my mind about what kitchen I wanted when I saw the showroom.

mumsolihull · 14/11/2018 19:58

Thanks @PurpleFlowersInMyHair - we've been really pleased with it.

@Faffandahalf the way that Units Online do it is they manufacture their own carcasses, then you choose the branded doors. The carcasses are good quality in our experience. Kitchen is a year old and as good as when it was first fitted! The doors that we went with were Burbidge - the Stowe range in Old Navy and Light Grey. Hope that helps!

Faffandahalf · 14/11/2018 20:02

Diseno I’m trying really hard to follow what you’re saying but all this talk of mdf/Mfc/different woods etc just makes me glaze over!
I need to be knowledgable about this stuff to make a more informed decision but I just can’t get my head round it at all and there’s just not enough clarity on any of these kitchen company websites. You have to really ask.

Is DIY ‘real wood’? They say timber frame and veneered centre panel. Is that better than Magnet MDF then?

OP posts:
Bangwhistlepop2 · 14/11/2018 20:03

Benchmarxx is the sister company to Wicks and they manufacture kitchens for Wicks. Howdens is slightly better quality than Wicks and Benchmarxx. We had a Howdens kitchen fitted last summer and we're really pleased with it. The service was good and the design team were happy to accommo our requests.

Faffandahalf · 14/11/2018 20:05

Thanks mumsolihull it really is beautiful. That’s the exact colour I want too.

Thanks Anna we just need to find time to make the trip down and sort it all out.

I just want to feel like if I choose them it’s becuas they really are the better quality because 7.2k doesn’t feel cheap!

OP posts:
Unacervezaporfavor · 14/11/2018 21:57

As said in posts above Wickes and Benchmarx are both Travis Perkins group companies. Benchmarx operates similar to Howdens in being “accounts” based and Wickes acts like the “retail” side. The kitchens are the same kitchens. With Benchmarx they are just supplied pre-assembled.

In my experience Howdens are a slightly lower quality product. Their carcass and worktop (laminate) materials are amongst the poorest quality. Search fitters or trade forums and you will find fitters complaining about how the rubbish they put in them kills their blades, router cutters etc. I’ve even seen mention of metal bits in their chipboards something that would not happen with the QC procedures in place at companies like Egger, Krono and Deco.

Also, their melamine is usually thinner and chips easier too (certainly true of Ikea laminates) making cuts unsightly. Although in this regard and in fairness to Howdens, I suspect none of the big brand names use boards and melamine at the Egger, etc quality level.

Be wary of companies calling their cabinets “rigid”. Lots of places from, Benchmarx to Units Online, are saying they supply “rigid” units because they are supplied pre-assembled. However, what many actually supply is a Cam and Dowel unit. This is a pre-assembled flat pack unit. Basically, an Ikea unit assembled prior to delivery.

Note that in delivery, handling, expansion and contraction of the timber based panels, vibrations caused by dishwashers etc, cams will loosen and with this the units lose what rigidity they first had. This will obviously impact the overall look of the kitchen as doors lose alignment, in-frame doors will bind on their frames etc.

True rigid kitchens are built using cabinet making techniques that result in a rigid and robust structure that will resist racking (as much as any open box unit can). Racking is the horizontal movement that causes a rectangle to deform into a trapezoid shape which is thus out of square.

Properly built rigid units will not lose square. Building a truly rigid unit could involve any or a mixture of glue and dowel, lose tenon joinery, housing joints such as dadoes or rabbets, glue and screw, box joints, etc.

The vast majority of rigid units are usually glued and dowelled (with many more dowels than you’d have cam joints). Rigid units, of any variety, also get their strength and rigidity from the use of optimal, evenly distributed pressure, applied across entire cabinet joints (eg by machine presses) as the glue cures rather than the low amount of point only pressure provided by Cam fixings.

As is unfortunately always the case, not all truly “rigid” units are made equal. Any open box design cabinetry will have a tendency to “rack” (ie move horizontally from left to right making a trapezoid shape rather than a perfectly square rectangle).

The only way to truly “cure” racking, if not reduce it to a negligible amount, is with diagonal bracing on the rear of the unit. A solid back panel achieves this, provided it is properly jointed when building the unit. It is also more sightly than 2 tensioned diagonal metal straps from corner to corner.

BUT, for the rear panel to effectively add rigidity and counter racking it needs to be securely fixed. With most production kitchen units being made with MFC panels this is best achieved with glue and dowel construction where ALL cabinet components are glued and dowelled together making one solid homogeneous piece of furniture. The very best quality MFC based units are made like this - ie 18mm boards on ALL sides of ALL units (ie wall, base, etc), glued and dowelled together. As a side note, with birch plywood based carcasses glue and screws, preferably with (but even without) housing joints, will also work very well as ply takes screws much better than chipboard.

In spite of this, many manufacturers cut production costs by using thinner backs. These thinner backs can only be slid into slots (mostly loosely and so adding no rigidity) or be stapled on (again adding no strength or rigidity to the unit). This is why even manufacturers advertising glue and dowel construction are not all making the same quality cabinet.

My understanding is that DIY Kitchens used to make wholly 18mm units with all pieces glued and dowelled. This is certainly no longer the case (just checked their website) as they use thin backs which are too thin to use dowels. They’ve also stopped using PWS and Burbidge kitchen components which they always made a point of advertising in the past (certainly when I first heard of them) - it would be interesting to know whether this was also a decision made to reduce production costs.

Anyways after the long rant I’d rate the units mentioned by the op as:

  1. DIY Kitchens
  2. Units online (marginally in front of)
  3. Wickes/Benchmarx (I prefer the pricing transparency of Wickes to the Benchmarx/Howdens model and with sales and a reasonable fitter Wickes can often work out cheaper for the same kitchen).
  4. Howdens, B&Q, etc etc

Incidentally, cam fixings are generally called “knock down” fixings (designed so that furniture can be non-permanent and easily disassembled) so consider this when a retailer states that a Cam and Dowel construction is “rigid” and as good as a “glued and dowel” or other truly rigid built unit.

PS - I can’t comment on Magnet - anything I’ve heard is hearsay and not something from personal experience.

Unacervezaporfavor · 14/11/2018 22:19

In terms of hardware Blum, Hettich, Grass etc are all pretty similar.

Blum’s lift systems are generally the best regarded, Grass’ Nova Pro drawers won German design awards over Blum Legrabox and Hettich Architec and Innotech drawer boxes a couple of years back.

Blum’s (mechanical) Tip-on with soft close is OK (for this type of functionality you really want electric based system) whereas Hettich was first to market and had to withdraw the product and rework it.

In all theres not a lot between them.

More important is what you’re actually getting...like Diseno said, are they the older drawer boxes? Also, ignoring Blum metabox and equivalents (lowest entry level) most places offer Blum Antaro on Tandem Runners. This is std Blum, but Blum’s best box is Legrabox on Movento Runners.

So again, check what you’re getting and don’t assume that “Blum drawers and/or hinges” mean they’re the same product across different suppliers.

PurpleFlowersInMyHair · 15/11/2018 08:59

Wow Diseno thank you so much for all that information about the Devol-alike kitchens. I’m thinking of an in frame construction, however I’m a bit concerned about keeping them clean. I’ve only ever had gloss which are quick to wipe. Thanks so much for the wealth of information- you obviously know your kitchen cabinets!

And I’m also in awe of unacerveza you also know a lot about all the hinges and fittings. Please let me read that over and absorb that information- a lot of it went over my head!

Just out of interest which (properly) rigid units do you recommend that will not break the bank? It seems that DIY are a good compromise if you want half decent quality at an affordable price?

PurpleFlowersInMyHair · 15/11/2018 09:01

Just checked and DIY do the ‘standard’ tandem Blum runners. I wonder what Wickes do

Unacervezaporfavor · 15/11/2018 10:09

Of the companies mentioned above DIY offer the better quality cabinet. I can’t speak to their doors/components as they no longer offer PWS and Burbidge which are two of the better U.K. suppliers in this regard.

There are manufacturers out there supplying fully rigid great quality units (ie including thick, properly jointed backs). Cost wise they will be pricier than DIY but for 10-20% more than DIY (some are loads more but you can find those that are frankly less greedy) they are IMO much better value (personally I would only consider skilled independent cabinet makers, Wilkinson, Smallbones, etc quality as better but these come at a totally different price point and honestly i don’t think are vastly better - you get into debates on MFC vs plywood cabinets etc and which is better and why as a material choice rather than joinery/construction methods).

Suppliers of the better quality units are mostly smaller businesses (generally supplying the better quality independent showrooms - many of these are also more reasonable than is often realised) but you should get more for your money in service levels too (eg anything from first fix to design to BC considerations).

With a DIY outlet the onus is on the purchaser to know what they are buying (eg if a client makes a mistake with a measurement, unit size, panels etc it will be the client that suffers the cost of rectifying the issue whereas a good supplier that designs etc will be responsible for addressing and rectifying such issues themselves).

Oliversmumsarmy · 15/11/2018 21:39

You don’t need to go as far as the DIY showroom.

I think they are the same as Ultima kitchens or I think there is another name they go by.

I viewed what I was going to order in a very expensive kitchen shop in my area

CD2018 · 16/11/2018 04:23

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wowfudge · 16/11/2018 07:12

Oliversmumsarmy is correct - Ultima is their trade brand and the drawers in our DIY Kitchen have Ultima labels in them. The factory is right next to the showroom.

averythinline · 16/11/2018 07:31

We have a DIY kitchen- went for the Stanford as once we saw the doors (you can order samples) we preferred the smooth matt finish.... surprisingly this saved money :)

I decided against inframe following discussion with one of teh kitchen designers I spoke to (cant rememember firm) as I really like the look but not sure praticality..my main reasons were

  1. they reduce space,
  2. putting things iabout in and out can bash the 'frame' - we are a clumsy family and didnt want to stress about chipping the paint
  3. the frames can be a dust/crumb magnet .

I really like the kitchen - the benefit of having them delivered all built was a much faster install - although you need space to store them...

I couldnt work out an end and they just sorted on the phone....

They are definelty better quality than most I saw and much much better than IKEA (we used in the utility room)

my design was all based on threads from mumsnet Grin the real stand out was turning the drawers around on my peninsular run (think it was a poster TalkinPeace...
I didnt go there -which gave me sleepless nights at times but love my kitchen ...

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