Help! Engineer doesn't know what's wrong with boiler says replace it

[Dottierichardson]

Have a 6-year-old Worcester Bosch condensing boiler Greenstar Junior 28i Mk1v. Was working fine but the pressure was starting to drop a little and needed repressurizing more than normal. Had a guy in to service it. Gas Safe, seems very decent.

Came to service boiler and said needed a deep clean. Broke the seals and cleaned it, but pressure still dropping when heating off and climbing up to 2.2, dropping again and then climbing to well over 3 in the red zone. Guy thought it was an expansion vessel problem. Came back again and re-pressurised the expansion vessel, checked the PRV and the Schrader valve and anything else on/in it that might affect pressure.

Says readings all normal but fault still there and doesn't know what's wrong with it so can only suggest new boiler! Obviously that's drastic and expensive...any advice? Worried about having no heating but don't want to replace a boiler if don't absolutely have to do it. Says can use hot water in the meantime just not the heating, but think pressure too low to safely run hot water. Rang WB but they charge over 300 just to come and look at it and could offer no advice. Don't know what to do next, do I just cave and agree to buy no boiler and find cash to do so or is there another option? I've never heard of anyone not knowing what's actually wrong, is this common?

Let me guess, he is able to supply and fit a new one?

This condemning of boilers because the person doesn't know how to fix it is a widespread scam/con. It makes my boier guy furious! (He is one of those old-school types who likes the challenge of fault finding and fixing things!)

Have you tried googling the boiler make and symptoms/fault codes?

At the very least I'd be getting a second opinion - find someone personally recommended on FB local page. You can stick it out till Monday, so don't feel pressured into weekend emergency call outs.

Anything here?:

community.screwfix.com/threads/worcester-bosch-green-star-28i-junior-pressure-problems.158131/
www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/threads/worcester-28i-junior-boiler-loss-of-water-pressure.15757/
www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/products/boilers/greenstar-i-troubleshooting

As PP said, you need a second opinion.

Thanks so much for replying. I thought it was dodgy but I don't know enough about boilers to be confident so really glad to have it confirmed. But I didn't want to automatically assume the guy was scamming us, as if he isn't then it's hard to get someone decent, at least in my experience.

It isn't showing any fault codes, it fires fine, the heating works and the water works. The radiators are all getting hot, no discernible leaks anywhere either. Before he serviced it, it was dipping very slightly into the red and going up to about 2. Now it's dropping almost to zero when the heating's off and climbing way into the red after the heating's been on for about ten minutes. I Googled the fault and all the things he says have been checked and he's dealt with correspond to what might cause the problem - the main possibility seems to be the expansion vessel - but he says it's fine and everything else is fine, and he's flummoxed. So I asked him what do I do now and he said the only thing he could suggest is replace it which yes he can do...

Is FB the best place to find someone reliable? We used a guy before that neighbours used but he left us with a leak that we had to get someone else out to, we seem to have bad luck with plumbers!

I rang my boiler manufacturer direct and asked them if they could recommend someone in my area. This was after 4 plumbers said to just replace it.

The recommended engineer came managed to fix the problem. He was honest and said that he wasn't sure how long the repair would work for but even with the cost of his repair included he was still cheaper than the others by a mile when I ultimately had to replace the boiler.

It's not necessarily a full on scam, it could just be a plumber who doesn't know how to fix the fault, so reverts to "replace it". Try looking for a proper heating engineer instead.

I have had a mix of recs on FB, I tend to try and ask for "personally used" recommendations or you just get people spamming you with their own business. But I do think it's marginally better than faceless "green book" or checkatrade type things because anyone can get published in them.

(Also, if he is decent, he won't mind you getting a second opinion.)

It would be worth getting WB engineer out - £300 is cheaper than getting a new boiler

I would call out Worcester Bosch engineers for a second opinion.

Thank you all again. I understand about the 300 plus in theory, I suppose what put me off WB engineers is that the first thing the guy I spoke to seemed to suggest is that I might want a new boiler. Also the payment is for them to come out but if they just look at it and decide they can't do anything they can still, at their discretion, charge the full 300, which is a lot on top of what we might have to pay for a new boiler.

But interesting about the second opinion I suggested I might call WB but the plumber said no need. But if it is a scam seems strange as came back twice. Although he gave the impression if he couldn't fix it no one could.

It just seems weird though after working perfectly for years it should go haywire after a service and odd it's not flashing any fault lights or similar. But on the plus side I now know a lot of the correct terms for boiler anatomy.

Sorry but Butterfly what make of boiler have you got? I'm curious because we shelled out for the WB on the basis that they're very reliable and long-lasting, but if they conk out so soon then wondering if I should check out other brands. If your manufacturer is more helpful then that sounds like great aftercare service. We have a major illness in the family at present so am the one responsible for dealing with things and feel a bit worried I might make the wrong choice.

WB and Vaillant are supposed to be the most reliable makes.

7 or 8 years for a WB is not right, unless you have been running some kinds of industrial production gas-burning sideline 24/7?

I would expect double digit lifespans for any boiler, unless you get a seriously crap make (or some known duff model on a reliable name), and more like 20-30 something for a WB.

These are all classic symptoms of a failed expansion vessel or possibly blocked connecting tube from the expansion vessel. If the pressure drops too low the boiler will detect it and shut off until its repressurised so dont worry too much about it.

Stupid question but could the gauge be defective, if otherwise the system is working fine??

New boiler after such a short time sounds mad. Smith some jhdiciousbgoogling you might be able to find a greenstar boiler engineer who can look for less than 300 smackers.

Arnold Thanks - I googled stuff before he came back - and asked about the EV, which he repressurised and also about the Scraeder (?)valve that leads to the EV - I read it can leak - as well as the pressure relief valve (in case there was a blockage), the filling loop in case of leaks, sludge and everything else I found when I looked online. He said that there was nothing wrong with any of these things and that when he tested them they were within normal parameters. He said that technically there's nothing showing up as wrong with the boiler except that there's something wrong with the boiler - and he doesn't have a clue what that might be...It felt a bit like a weird comedy skit. So basically it worked okay, it was serviced and now it looks okay on paper but the pressure now drops to zero when the heating's not on and climbs way into the red when it is. So he said not to use the heating only the hot water, but unless we keep repressurising the level's too low to use hot water. So it's basically sitting there. And he says the only option is to install a new one. I just don't like not knowing what the problem is/was and also don't really want to buy a new boiler.

Shotsfired the silly thing is we don't use it that much. We come from a line of households where the heating didn't get put on until the windows were icy and so we're inured to a lot of cold. A lot of my friends have theirs on a lot and wear t-shirts in the winter, we all wear jumpers and put it on when it's really cold and then only a couple of hours at a time. So it's less used I think than most of my friends. It's also been very reliable in the whole time we've had it there's never been a problem before. But it was slightly dropping pressure and climbing a little higher than usual in the last three or four weeks, but took a while to drop and never went into the red at the higher end of the scale ever. I suppose it's quite funny really we thought we should get a full overhaul/service before it went wrong, as hadn' t had one last year. The guy we used to use retired.

Shotsfired it's not even 7 or 8 years old, it's 6 and 2 months!

Ohno I wondered about the pressure gauge too, but he said it's fine. Although even though I can name the parts I have no way of telling. I think if he'd said it's your.....and it can't be fixed/replaced that would be easier and easier to have verified. I need a post-mortem of sorts.

Have you thought about a fixed price repair. British Gas offer this for £99 repair and you join their cover plan for the year at £23 per month.

Could be a cheap way to fix the problem and ensure your covered for anymore issues in the next 12 months. They will also give you a service as part of this plan.

Could you ring the man who retired and ask him if there is any possibility he would look at it for you as a favour because you trust him so much and would value his opinion - paid for of course.

Ask Mumsnetter PigletJohn if he can advise. He knows all about boilers. He knows all about many things and is very helpful. Call him with the @ sign maybe.

Thanks retired plumber has moved to somewhere rural. Will look at BG, but heard they prefer to 'condemn' and replace than repair?
@PigletJohn any advice please?

Actually just having been able to talk it through really helps and makes me feel less uncertain about my instincts to get it checked out separately. So I really appreciate it.

Quite common with expansion vessels is the pipe that connects that expansion vessel to the rest of the boiler is quite thin and can block quite easily. You could try and have the block cleared, replace the pipe (this can be awkward depending on the boiler) or sometimes an easier option is to fit an external expansion vessel anywhere on the circuit.

If you want to prove that it is definitely an expansion issue, you could pick an non-important room (utility room/spare room etc), turn radiator off, empty it and turn it back on. This gives an equivalent of an expansion vessel, if your pressure no longer goes through the roof then you know the expansion vessel you have, for whatever reason, is not working.

A wet hoover is helpful for dealing with the radiator emptying

Dobbins thanks oddly - I really did do my research - I saw that online on a plumbers' forum, but the guy said nobody does that and that was that. But I guess we could try that ourselves? The rads are all cold now anyway. And we have a room that's not being used because it's about to be repainted so we've cleared it out so not a problem. Shouldn't he have checked that pipe?

Dobbins presumably we do it with the system switched off and then just reset the thermostat and switch it back on?