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Original poster

Buyer wanting us to pay for indemnity insurance for windows

28 replies

FatimaLovesBread · 06/10/2018 15:33

We're days away from exchanging when our buyers solicitor has just come back with another query (after the original replies were sent a month ago, god knows why it has taken so long)

Our house is in a conservation area. Replacement windows and doors were installed in 2006 by the previous owners, we bought the house in 2010 and our solicitor requested a copy of the FENSA certificate which was provided but I don't seem to have now.

Our buyers solicitor originally asked a month ago for proof that planning permission was granted for the windows in a conservation area. I replied that the previous owners installed them and as far as I am aware no PP is required as although it is a conservation area, the house is not listed or under an article 4 directive.

Sol has now come back a month later saying they want written proof from council that windows didn't need PP or indemnity insurance.

I wanted it sorted asap but if I go to council, I then can't get the insurance. But I don't think it is needed.
Plus it has a FENSA certificate app surely building regs wouldn't sign off if it had needed PP? Also, the building regs sign off shows up in the LA search

I'm annoyed that it's taken 4 weeks to raise again when we're supposed to exchange and that I can't ring my sol and rant because it's a Saturday.

Does anyone know anything about planning or Windows?

OP posts:
Soontobe60 · 06/10/2018 15:42

I had a similar thing but in the house we bought. We sold ours to a cash buyer so she didn't ask for anything like that, however we bought with a very small mortgage so the mortgage company insisted on guarantees for a 20 year old extension! The alternative was indemnity insurance. We were in Canada on holiday at the time so struggled to actually speak to anyone, and had email delays. I emailed the estate agent and asked him to speak to the vendors. In the meantime, into,d my solicitor to go ahead with the indemnity, we would pay it if the vendors refused. They did it straight away, cost about £100 and in the end the vendors paid anyway.
My advice, just get the indemnity, saves a lot of hassle.

Mummytowooter · 06/10/2018 16:14

I’m sure you can get a replacement fensa certificate. Might be worth looking into that. When we moved our buyers solicitor requested one and we didn’t have it. DH sorted it but he either went through the contractor or fensa directly (sorry I can’t recall which)

Original poster
FatimaLovesBread · 06/10/2018 17:33

You can definitely get a replacement fensa certificate, I've already been on the website and it all shows up on there. I'd understand if they were asking for that but they're not, they're asking for proof planning permission wasn't required. When surely building regs would issue a certificate if it needed PP and didn't have it?

I'll mention the fensa cert to my solicitor on Monday

OP posts:
huggybear · 06/10/2018 17:40

Sorry but our solicitor asked for loads of indemnity policies for missing certificates etc. and so they should otherwise they leave themselves liable (as you are now)

Motionoftheoceon · 06/10/2018 17:41

I think your getting mixed up between planning permission and building control. One is about permission to undertake the work, the other is about the standards the work is carried out to. The FENSA certificate just validates that the windows were installed by a certified tradesman to the standard approved by building control.

Planning permission is entirely separate, and although not usually required it can be necessary in conservation areas, particularly if you have an article 4 direction of listed status over any part of the building, where the local authority don't want you to do anything to change the appearance of the building without their approval.

If i were you, I would just get the indemnity in place, there are relatively cheap and easy to obtain, and as you say, if you go to the council and PP was required you would be unable to get insurance and the buyer would likely back out at this point.

wonkylegs · 06/10/2018 17:55

As another poster says BRegs and PP aren't linked so that doesn't help you but if go on your councils planning website you should be able to download the conservation area details for your area and what that means in terms of planning constraints - that should show the buyer that they do not require planning permission. Every conservation area has slightly different constraints and often people do not realise that.
Our house is in a conservation area which is very lax and actually tends to just relate to new building work & demolition in the area rather than replacement or repair work but I am working on a house in a different conservation area and we aren't allowed to even paint the front door without permission, it's a bit of a nightmare.

wonkylegs · 06/10/2018 17:59

Crucially meant to say that both spell out what can and can't be done on the conservation area document on the council website.

DamsonWhine · 06/10/2018 18:07

My recollection is the the rules about replacement windows (presumably they are uPVC?) came in in about 2010/2011 - the reason I say so is that we bought a house in a conservation area in late 2010 and by the time we applied for planning permission for a rebuild/extension at the back of the house in mid-2011, a court case had happened that led to the rule on windows.

So, what I am trying to say that it may be possible for your solicitor to prove that the rule wasn’t in force when the windows were installled I.e. prior to your purchase in 2010 and, therefore, there was no need for permission and no need for indemnity insurance. Which your solicitor may or may not be able to do depending on their appetite to research planning law and your buyer may or may not accept, depending on how sensible they are, their appetite for risk and the approach of their own solicitor. And it all might cost more to find out than the indemnity insurance in any event.

OliviaBenson · 06/10/2018 18:23

I'd call their bluff on this. Can you print out from the planning portal that replacement windows in a CA but no article 4 direction don't need permission?

seven201 · 06/10/2018 18:40

We had to buy indemnities for a couple of things, including something to do with Windows, when we sold our flat. I think it was maybe about £100 so I'd just pay it if I were you. In the grand scheme of buying and selling it's not a lot of money. Annoying though!

EdithDickie · 06/10/2018 20:32

We've just had the exact same thing. The indemnity wasn't much, about £50 I think, so we just went with it. In the grand scheme of things it wasn't worth the arguing and delay.

Original poster
FatimaLovesBread · 06/10/2018 21:15

Thanks for all the replies.
I've done a bit of research again tonight and our house is in a CA but is not under an article 4 directive so hasn't had its permitted development rights withdrawn. So doesn't require PP.
I've also searched the planning portal from planning permission submissions for Windows in the whole village and the only ones are listed building consent. So I'm confident that it wasn't required.

I could understand if they were asking for indemnity for a missing certificate but they're not, theyre asking for insurance against permission that isn't required anyway.

Now it's deciding whether getting some sort of confirmation from the council will take longer than just paying say £50.

OP posts:
Original poster
FatimaLovesBread · 06/10/2018 21:17

Also wanted to say I understand that the fensa certificate relates to building regs and that is a different thing to PP.
Was just pondering whether it would get signed off in the first place if it should have had permission?
When we bought the house in 2010 ours sols just asked for a copy of the FENSA certificate but perhaps out certificate are more aware of locals CA rules

OP posts:
MrsFezziwig · 07/10/2018 13:55

I was in a similar situation. If you think that you are really only a few days from exchange and this isn’t going to be the first of many queries to delay the sale, I would just pay the indemnity - it’s a relatively small amount compared to all the other costs of moving.

kikashi · 07/10/2018 18:58

I've had this with sales a few times,we just paid the the indemnity insurance costs to save time and our sanity. Strangely, when I've bought I've never needed to ask vendors for this.

Original poster
FatimaLovesBread · 08/10/2018 16:16

Just got a quote for the insurance, £218!!
Should our solicitors not have brought this up in 2010? They only asked for the fensa certificate from the buyers then.
Ugh

OP posts:
MrsFezziwig · 08/10/2018 21:43

That is a bit on the steep side - I had to have two different ones and that came to just over a hundred combined.

Spickle · 09/10/2018 11:02

We've had the same problem, except that we were the buyers. Property is in a conservation area but with the article 4 directive. The sellers provided the FENSA certificate but our solicitor wanted consent from the local borough council (it's a leasehold property and the council is the freeholder). The seller refused to get an indemnity and couldn't prove that planning permission wasn't required. In the end the seller's solicitor merely wrote to the local authority asking for retrospective consent and they came back within days to grant the consent.

NoSquirrels · 09/10/2018 11:11

Can’t you just send over all your research on why it’s not required, along with a quote for the indemnity and offer to pay 50%?

crimsonlake · 09/10/2018 11:38

I think it is normal to expect the seller to pay the cost of the Indemnity Insurance.

twiglet · 09/10/2018 11:50

Hi OP I'm not sure where you live but I would call your local authority.

We bought a house in a conservation zone in Scotland, buyer couldn't prove planning permission for a sun lounge built 20 yrs ago. After a lot of research we discovered that it didn't matter as the time period had passed (5 yrs) and therefore it didn't need anything.

NoSquirrels · 09/10/2018 12:28

I think it is normal to expect the seller to pay the cost of the Indemnity Insurance

Yes, agree, but in this situation as they are asking for insurance to indemnify themselves against a non-existent problem ...

Meandyouandyouandme · 09/10/2018 12:58

We paid an indemnity on a window that didn’t even exist in our house! We bought a house, and then knocked the wall down that contained the window. Had an extension with all the required certificates, but when we came to sell, our buyers solicitor insisted on an indemnity for this window, as it had been replaced originally after a certain date, so needed to abide by the regulations, have no idea why we paid about £75 for it, complete waste of money.

MovingThisYearHopefully · 09/10/2018 12:58

Exactly Squirrels. This is not something I'd be prepared to pay for. Our buyers were expecting us to pay £750. Yes.. £750 for indemnity insurance so they could extend the house, when every sodding house on the street is extended & it was a selling point that you could do pretty much anything you like because the council clearly don't care! I refused on those grounds & they backed down.

wonkylegs · 09/10/2018 13:18

I would be sending over my research with clear links to the council webpages so it's backed up by the official legislation

I would say that if they want an unnecessary indemnity that they are welcome to pay for it but the links show that they do not need it and it is a waste of money.