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Original poster

Query about possible expiry of Planning Permission

31 replies

daisychain01 · 12/08/2018 08:34

I'd appreciate any advice or experiences.

Our NDNs are currently developing an extension. Their property had changed hands twice, once in 2009 to "interim owners" and then in 2016 when they took ownership.

The planning permission was granted in 2006 with a 3 year deadline to commence work. At some point, we don't know when, a foundation and 2 courses of breeze blocks were laid, then nothing done until our NDN started their building work in winter 2017.

Clearly the foundations and blocks were started to ensure compliance to 3 year deadline was achieved, but we wonder if that work was started after the expiration (maybe by the "interim owners" after 2009), could this invalidate the permission? If so, could we take issue with the Planning office (eg if no Buildings Control inspection report submitted after the foundations laid proving the work started in due time?)

In a nutshell, are planning permission 3 year deadlines indicative only or a showstopper?

OP posts:
Permaexhaustion · 12/08/2018 09:09

at some point, we don't know when, a foundation and 2 courses of breeze blocks were laid
Well, if you don't know when, what possible grounds do you have to think you could challenge your neighbours work?

I can't see most councils taking enforcement action, even if you did have evidence.
The most that's likely to happen , if they had definitely started building on an expired pp, is that they would be required to reapply. And if there's been no huge change in planning policy, that new application would be successful.

Putting down foundations, so that pp doesn't expire, is a widely done thing. Why are you assuming that some previous owner got that bit wrong? Are you trying to stop the build?

Original poster
daisychain01 · 12/08/2018 09:20

We are definitely not trying to completely stop the build. We want to understand if compliance to the deadline is something serious.

OP posts:
Original poster
daisychain01 · 12/08/2018 09:21

And if there's been no huge change in planning policy, that new application would be successful

12 years has elapsed that's my point!

OP posts:
titsbumfannythelot · 12/08/2018 09:27

By laying the foundation the consent has now been activated.

wowfudge · 12/08/2018 09:37

Quite what you think you will achieve, I don't know. When did you move into your house out of interest? The current owners likely checked when the works were started before they purchased. Seven years of owning the house hardly makes a past owner an interim owner - odd thing to say.

Permaexhaustion · 12/08/2018 09:37

Well, no, if the consent had already expired, it is not capable of being activated.

In that case, works done would be without consent. But could easily be refurbished by retrospective permission.

What are you hoping to achieve, OP?

Permaexhaustion · 12/08/2018 09:38

regularised, not refurbished.

FlotSHAMnJetson · 12/08/2018 09:51

Do you object to the works being done?
When did you move in?

Original poster
daisychain01 · 12/08/2018 14:29

If they have to resubmit the plans because for whatever reason the 3 year deadline wasn't adhered to it would mean we get the chance to comment on aspects of concern we have. Obviously if the LA has on file the inspection report within the 3 years then we have no reason to take our concerns further. We couldn't put in any objections , eg loss of privacy, at the time as we didn't live in the property when the Planning Application was made.

I thought it would be good to know what the situation was as we don't want to fall out with our NDN but we do have concerns about the project so want to take any appropriate action but armed with the correct information. Planning processes can be legitimately questioned - that's why they are there- we aren't doing anything wrong.

OP posts:
QuinionsRainbow · 12/08/2018 14:33

When did you take ownership of your property, were the foundations in place then, and did your buyer's searches reveal the existence of the original planning application?

wowfudge · 12/08/2018 14:34

True - however you would need to prove the works were started after the expiry of the three year period and presumably your searches before you bought your house showed the pp? Were you aware of the foundations, etc when you bought your house?

wowfudge · 12/08/2018 14:34

X post!

QuinionsRainbow · 12/08/2018 14:43

Quora is a question-and-answer site where questions are asked, answered, edited, and organized by its community of users in the form of opinions. Its publisher, Quora Inc., is based in Mountain View, California. The company was founded in June 2009, and the website was made available to the public on June 21, 2010. Users can collaborate by editing questions and suggesting edits to answers that have been submitted by other users. Quora requires users to register with their real names rather than an Internet pseudonym (screen name): although verification of names is not required, false names can be reported by the community. This was done with the ostensible intent of adding credibility to answers. Users with a certain amount of activity on the website have the option to write their answers anonymously but not by default [Wikipedia].

So, not a bit like Mumsnet ar all!

Seeline · 12/08/2018 14:54

Work has to start within the 3 years. Sometimes applicants notify the Council of the start date if they know that they are not intending to finish the development straight away, but don't have to. They don't have to use LA building inspectors so the Council may not have any record. If you raise it with the Council it would be down to your neighbours to prove when work was started.

LIZS · 12/08/2018 14:59

Did you buy your property knowing nd had pp granted and now want to object?If they took the trouble to put down bricks they would have done so only to ensure the pp did not expire. Even if it did it is unlikely to get refused unless the plans changed significantly.

Original poster
daisychain01 · 12/08/2018 15:57

To answer a few questions and please forgive me if I need to be a little vague for obvious reasons I want to stay on good terms with our NDN.

We knew foundations were already in place when we purchased but not the exact date. The fact the ndn property changed hands around 2009 which was concurrent with PP expiration means it isn't clear to us exactly when foundations were laid. We took possession much later ie well after 2009 and our current NDN took possession in 2016.

So you can see it is quite an unusual and protracted situation with lots of changes of ownership, possibly some balls dripped along the way which has made us question when the exact date of the first footings being laid might have been

My understanding is that no matter who inspects the first footings and then the subsequent damp course (either the council or an independent buildings surveyor) those reports still need to be lodged to prove correct controls and quality standards are in place.

We are prepared to step away if they say all is done in accordance to process. But to get that info will probably need a F of I request I presume.

OP posts:
Original poster
daisychain01 · 12/08/2018 16:02

Did you buy your property knowing nd had pp granted and now want to object?

No of course not. We are rational people and don't go in for vexatious time wasting or adding stress to other people's lives needlessly. As stated above there were different owners involved. We are treading cautiously and we would only consider highlighting concerns if we found the process were incorrectly followed and we had a justifiable reason.

OP posts:
Original poster
daisychain01 · 12/08/2018 16:04

"They" being the LA by the way.

OP posts:
mumsastudent · 12/08/2018 16:04

doh! ring up the planning department & ask (sorry don't mean to sound rude but that's all you have to do)

OnGoldenPond · 12/08/2018 16:30

Struggling to see what your angle is on this, OP.

You clearly had full details of the approved plans and knew foundations were in place before you bought your property. If you had misgivings about those approved plans you could easily have walked away before purchase. Looking for a legal loophole at this point to try to stop your neighbor completing the work may be legal but it is seriously sneaky and disreputable. Were you perhaps hoping to use this to hold your neighbors to ransom in some way?

I'm certainly glad you aren't my neighbors.

wowfudge · 12/08/2018 20:16

This seems a really tortuous way of potentially dealing with something you had full knowledge of when you bought the house next door. Don't go through with this OP - you will end up falling out with your neighbours and your chances of success are slim to nothing. Just have a friendly chat with your neighbours about the things which bother you.

Original poster
daisychain01 · 12/08/2018 20:35

doh! ring up the planning department & ask (sorry don't mean to sound rude but that's all you have to do)

Yes mumsastudent that is our intended next step, I agree. The Planning Office are there to answer such requests, we have as much right to ask questions as anyone else.

How could I have been so stupid as to think MNers (not all) would be willing to enter into a fact finding discussion without frothing at the mouth and accusing me of being the Devil incarnate. Maybe it's jealousy or projection, no way of knowing. I'm definitely not the Devil incarnate, but I do own a property which very often amounts to the same thing on here Smile

OP posts:
Original poster
daisychain01 · 12/08/2018 20:48

Looking for a legal loophole at this point to try to stop your neighbor completing the work may be legal but it is seriously sneaky and disreputable. Were you perhaps hoping to use this to hold your neighbors to ransom in some way?

OnGoldenPond If I tried to pull a stunt like that, and the Planning Office found my action to be unjustifiable, sneaky and disreputable, then I'm sure they will put me well and truly in my place. They are duty bound to be fair and impartial, even if I am not.

So you can rest easy in your bed tonight, knowing justice will be done

OP posts:
OnGoldenPond · 12/08/2018 20:55

No Daisy, not jealousy or projection (jealous of what exactly??) just not impressed at your rather underhand intentions. Still can't work out what you hope to gain. But you crack on, I doubt your plans will come to anything as I would put good money on the foundations having been put in before the planning permission expired.

wowfudge · 12/08/2018 20:59

I think you sealed things when you stated, "at some point, we don't know when" in your opening post. I'm certainly not frothing at mouth, nor have you been accused of being the Devil incarnate. After this length of time I really think you are on a hiding to nothing and all you will do is potentially fall out with your NDNs who are completing the extension in good faith having been attracted to buy the house in all likelihood because of the pp.

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