builder dumping other jobs in my skip

[siftingflour]

What would you do/think?

I have a house project to redo the lower ground floor and some minor adjustments on the upper floor (there was a wall demolished and a small bathroom ripped out).

The project is overseen by an architect.

The skips were in the tender but when work started the builder called me up to pay for parking bay suspension (I assumed that was normal).

Last month I was on site and noticed that there was a bath in my skip. The architect laughed and said to the builder, I see you've finally managed to get rid of the bath from number (naming another project they were working on).

Last week I went again and this time the builder had a van load of stuff he was offloading into my skip.
I drew this to the architects and builders attention and they said it didn't matter as I paid a fix fee for skips in the tender.

The builder has just asked for another months suspension even though the only work is small garden work that isn't starting for another week. Suspension is 25 pounds a day and the building work would take about five days.
There has been no demolition work in the house for around four months.

I know realise that I've been had! The builder has got me to pay for the parking bay suspension to the tune of 8000 pounds and then used it for projects he is running where other people have not got skips. The builder and the archtect run a lot of jobs together (the builder misdoing the architects house). I have not needed this skip for months!

So: the architect - who is administering the project - says it's not his responsibility because the parking bay suspension was not in the tender I say he should have told me it was not in the tender during the tender process and then either factored it in or told me not to use it (he was in charge of the project coming into budget). Furthermore he knew I had parking bay suspension as the skip has been outside the house for nine months and he goes on site visits every two weeks.

The builder is going to say I agreed to it. My argument to him is that he told me I needed it and I believed him. My job is not to stop him from unnecessarily booking a skip (He actually said it was easier to have it there as I was going to need the skip8 again in two weeks and it took a week to book it. I pointed out that I'd rather make phone call than pay 26 pounds a day for him to keep the skip on site).

Can anyone help me unpick this. I would like to know if legally I have a leg to stand on. I've asked the architect to negotiate with the builder and said that I want to be reimbursed for the parking bay suspension fees when there were no demolition works and also to refund me a proportion of the skip use as he was using it for projects that were not my own.

Any advice?

To clarify

I have paid a parking bay suspension from October to June to the tune of 25 pounds a day. The builder requests it from me.

Also to add: I have now learned that for most projects that don't involve scaffolding - and where major work is going on - people don't use skips if it involves parking bay suspension. Nearly all the builders in my area dump the refuse in the front garden and then hire skips on a daily basis to remove the rubbish when needed. I feel so f-ing had.

He's definitely being a CF! Our builder paid for our skip and parking suspension for exactly that reason - so he could fill it with stuff whenever and we wouldn't question it.

That said, if he's paying for the skip hire he's spending quite a bit himself and even if you're not demolishing stuff loads of rubbish will still accumulate. I wouldn't go down a legal route because that's pretty inflammatory, but see if your architect can get a compromise sorted.

Sorry OP but this is nuts! You've paid 8k to have the rubble from one wall removed? What's your contract with the architect, are they managing the project in its entirety or are you?

I do not think that there is an easy answer to this one. One the face of it, they got you to pay for a skip, including the parking suspension, for some four weeks which you did not need.

The important thing for me would be, how are they otherwise? We have had some work done, and are now looking to start a further phase. Finding people who are good, who will listen and can be trusted to get the job done to the standard you require and the price they quoted is not easy. If the price of getting an excellent team is an extra months cost of skip, at a price which you can afford, I would just suck it up and know , for next time, to question the period when the skip is actually required.

A project manager would probably have picked up on that, but would probably have cost you more than the extra cost of the skip. It is a bit irritation, but if i liked what they were doing otherwise, I would live with it. No doubt others will have a different view.

They see you as a soft touch. How much have you paid for skips and what exactly does the contract state about them? Does it contain an estimate of how long skips would be needed?

I think I haven't been clear.

I paid for parking suspension for NINE MONTHS. That is 8000 pounds.
They have gutted downstairs so at least five months were necessary. The rest has not been. I have subsequently seen the builder dump in my house.

I am paying for the skips. Not the builder. But the tender price for the skips was a fixed price. So he did not charge me per skip. I am still paying for them though.

I hired an architect for phase two of the project . it was their job to put the job out to tender, help me choose a builder that met my brief and help me choose a tender that came in at cost.

The architect did not inform me that the price of the tender excluded the parking bay suspension. In fact it left out around 50,000 pounds worth of stuff (don't even ask).

However, they are administering the project in phase three and could see that there was a skip out there - and that the builder was using for his other projects (they work with him on other projects) - and they know about parking bay suspension and did nothing about it.

As for necessary:

I didn't need parking bay suspension probably or more than three weeks as they could have dumped the rubblie in the front garden and then put it into skips as needed.

FinallyHere

If you had a 170 year old house and someone ripped out all your ceiling roses and coving without your permission would you think it was going well?

I suspect the way these things go, realistically you will struggle to recover anything you have already paid. You can raise it in the final account but if your architect is the contract admin and is in cahoots he is unlikely to find for you. Do you have a QS?
I certainly wouldn't be paying any more for further suspension. Tell him it's not required and you can't pay for it and you will be claiming a proportion back of the foregoing charges.
The problem with contractors is they hold all the cards as if he isn't decent and decides to walk away mid job you are in trouble practically speaking.

Oh dear. You have been had. The coving

Much as I hate to say it, getting this amount back legally would cost a bomb. You’ll also probably ruin your working relationship with your architect and builder. Tendering was out by 50k, this is where independent project managers and quantity surveyors come in handy. What’s done is done. Good luck for the rest of the job. Building is a bloody nightmare, this reminds me why I gave up renovations.

You need to ask for rebate for all the days the builder isn't actually using the skip for YOUR job. Subtract it from the final payment if necessary. Also insist on seeing his receipt for payment. Just because your Architect is contract admin, doesn't mean he can make you pay it. You should also withhold a small payment (5-10%) to cover 'snagging' i.e. for stuff that isn't quite completed.

Incidentally, if you think your Architect is in cahoots or incompetent, then you should report him to the RIBA and ARCUK for misconduct. But do this after the job is finished, just in case. If he isn't registered with either or both, then he is breaking the law by calling himself an 'Architect'. This is surprisingly common, and they take quite a dim view of it.

Whoa, it sounds like you've got an architect issue more than a builder one! Hidden costs totalling 50k? I think Jaxhog is right - you need to do some checking up on your architect to find out if he's registered professionally, because it does sound like he's incompetent. Did you speak to any of his previous clients before appointing him?

Spoke to Architect hubby, and he reckons the builder should be paying the street cost himself. It's not usual for you to be asked for this on top, and implies that he forgot to include the cost in his quote. Since you haven't asked him to put the skip on the road (have you?) the cost falls to the builder. It isn't an additional contract item, so you shouldn't be asked to pay it. Your Architect should know this.

If he pays, then it's perfectly reasonable for him to put his own stuff in the skip.

Not that it helps but i think builders like just have a skip sitting there all the time just to save getting it taken away and brought back, we had about 5 months project but they weren't around all the time and the builder turned up with vans full of rubbish from other jobs. It usually seemed to be full, as soon as they booked a changeover they had it emptied and it was full up straight away with stuff from inside. I think they only paid for emptying but not for the time it was sitting there.

Problem with a skip in the street, is that councils can charge an arm and a leg for a license. Especially if it's occupying a designated parking space in London. But any half decent builder will know this and plan accordingly.

Yes, sadly, the builder (and Architect) saw you coming and have taken advantage of your naivety. If the builder's been doing work for the Architect then the Architect isn't really looking out for your interests as his client, so I wouldn't expect much help from him in resolving this issue. You could speak to a solicitor to see if you have any leeway contractually with either party but I wouldn't bank on it at this stage of the build.

We had an architect that recommended a builder who turned out to be a bit crap. He did an OK job in the end but it dragged on, short cuts were taken and it could have been done more efficiently and to a higher standard. We lived there for a few years and then after selling that house, I was sceptical about buying anywhere that wasn't '100% perfect' as I couldn't face the prospect of more feckin' builders.
However, DH convinced me it would be ok and thankfully, we learnt from our mistakes and for our next major renovation (£200k), my DH managed the project himself and it was so much better all around.

I think that to ensure a substantial building project is done well, you either need to manage it yourself in its entirety or pay someone to do that for you.

jaxhog - I did not ask him to put the skip on the road. the tender was done by the architect, who work with this builder a lot. They did not make the hidden costs explicit. The skips are in the tender, but they did not tell me that the builder would expect to have the skip on the street. the builder called me up at the start of the job and sent me a bill for the bay suspension, which was outside the tender (he said.). the architect knew about it as he has been on site every two weeks and seen the skip and even commented on how there is rubbish from
other peoples jobs in my skip!

when I say \commented' I mean made joke about it - an when I raised it with him he said it didn't make any difference as I was already paying for the skip (in the tender). what?

The builder is out of order. It costs circa £300 for a 8 years skip. If you have to pay such an extortionate fee for parking permits your builder should of used a collection service. Sounds like you have over paid for the number of skips and associated parking costs.

I’m in London and have to pay for a skip permit. Have just totally renovated an entire house incl large extension - from
memory I used 8 skips over a period of 5 months. To avoid charges I used a collection service when I could.

Does your project have a Quantity Surveyor to monitor the budget and building spends? Sounds like they're working together and scamming you in the process.

Any uodate to the resolution OP?

I’d probably make a complaint about the architect as he isn’t acting on your behalf.

At worst, the builder can only ask for you to pay for parking suspension for the days he's using the skip for YOUR job. At best, the Architect and builder should have included it in the tender and you owe nothing.

If you get no joy, tell the Architect you'll be reporting him/her to the RIBA and ARCUK. If they say they aren't members of ARCUK, then report them anyway for fraudulently claiming to be an Architect. Registration is a legal requirement.