WWYD? No boiler/ electric docs, due to complete in 2 weeks?!

[adaisy1394]

Hi All,
First thread so v appreciative for all/ any help!
Background:
I’m a FTB, buying a 2 bed Victorian terrace house win the west mids. We have agreed £115,000 which for the area and considering it has a garden, off road parking, transport links, 2 fireplaces and a cellar is a bit of a steal but still over the asking price. We originally offered in Dec 17 but were pipped to the post by someone else whose sale halted when her marriage broke down and could no longer buy. We stepped in with our same offer in Feb and were accepted.
• Mortgage offer issued
• Survey was fine but only a home buyers so full of the usual caveats about the age of the property
• Queries issued from us on 9ths March, seller gave responses to his solicitor on 17th April, Sellers solicitor only just passed on responses on Friday (4th May)??!!
• Due to complete 21st May
• Seller completed on his upward property last week but is staying in the property I’m buying until completion as there is unexpected work required in his new ones
• V short chain – only us and the seller
The Problem:
In response to the queries, the seller has said he has NOTHING for either the gas or the electrics. The boiler is old but no more than 8 - 10 years. The electrics are also old, looks like a new circuit board and light switches etc and I THINK there is an earth but the plug sockets are the kind that aren’t flush to the wall, they are little plastic boxes. The seller has made no attempt to prove either the electric or the boiler are safe and on checking the gas safe register and said I suppose quite rightly that the onus is on me. I’m just not sure how to make this right/ safe, the boiler was never registered with gas safe and I understand you can’t do this retrospectively. I’d really like to complete on time but if we need to replace the boiler and see to any electrical issues, with the current agreed price we will be massively out of pocket.
This is also very much just a starter home so on top of budget being tight, I plan to sell in 3-4 years so I want to do everything right from the start so that I don’t encounter issues during my selling process but also don’t end up in negative equity having spent more on the house than I can sell it for.
What have others done in this situation? Would you just flatly discount the cost of a new boiler form the agreed price? Would you be satisfied just having a service done to show its currently operating safely?
For the electrics I think I need to have some kind of electrical survey done, I imagine the electrics to currently be adequate but not ideal, my concern would be that they might not be adequate in a couple of years’ time but I guess I can’t really account for that.
Any negotiation strategy? Seller reckons he doesn’t need to sell to buy so my concern would also be that he tells be to jog on and sticks the house back on the market which would be worst possible outcome as I’m in love with the house and I’ve kept an eye on the market and there is just nothing more out there!! I’d be a total dunce to pay agreed price if major electrical works and a new boiler need fitted though as they survey valued the house at what I’m paying, assuming everything is in working order.
Help!!!

How long has seller lived there? 8-10 years is not old for a boiler. Has it ever been serviced or on a contract. Would you be willing to pay for a safety check (less than £100) . Did your surveyor highlight issues with either boiler or electrics? If you want an electrical check you should pay an electrician to visit.

You may feel you have an agreed completion date but that is only fixed at exchange in England and by the sounds of it you have yet to reach that point.

it is all down to you. there should be building regs ( not gas safe, that is different) for the boiler but the rest is for you to check. surveyors dont do that, you need to arrange an electrical su rvey.

also you seem unclear on the difference between exchange and completion. - have you exchanged? seller has every right to be there until.completion.

Hi LIZS

There is some confusion about how long they have lived there, they have latterly said only 2 years but the seller's wife mentioned they used to have a tenant in there for years previously in which case they would have had to have safety docs but they are now saying they didn't own it when there was a tenant there. Its never been serviced while they have been there, they have absolutely nothing for either gas or electric.

I am definitely happy to pay for the electrical survey (although nervous abut what it will throw up) but I'm not sure what to do about the boiler, I'm of the understanding that the best check is the gas safe register but it isn't on there and now cant be so I would assume safest bet is to take it out and get a new one safely fitted and therefore registered?

My solicitor is asking for an indemnity policy from the seller but that only financially covers something actually going wrong - not much use to me when I'm out cold with lungs full of carbon monoxide!

Hi specialsubject

I am aware the onus is on me, what I'm concerned about is what I should actually do to ensure the boiler is safe and wont cause me any issues when I come to sell. I also don't think I should have to pay for a new boiler if that's whats required as the value is based on the assumption everything is in safe, working order and my offer is what the property has been valued at. As said to PP, there is NOTHING for boiler or electric, including building regs - can this be completed retrospectively? Who would be able to carry out building regs inspection?

I am also aware of the difference between exchange and completion and we haven't done either as I need to absolutely sure I'm paying the right price before exchanging.

You could ask the owner to have the boiler serviced/gas safe checked. That is not unreasonable. They dont have to but you dont have to buy the house!

A poster upthread suggested a safety check on the boiler (£100) which should help to put your mind at rest.

Re: electrical survey, you will need to call someone today to book this if you want any chance of hitting May 21st, but it's a really short timescale - they get booked up weeks/months in advance. I did up my property last year and was waiting months for the sparky to come out, which held everything else up massively. Good luck!

Sounds fantastic for the price.

How easily could the current owner find another buyer and how much are you prepared to walk away?

If you are that worried I would offer to pay for an inspection before exchange with copies of the report to the owner and you.

An electrical survey will cost you less than £200 in the Midlands.

I'm not sure what you are looking for here

What would you expect the seller to have re: boiler & electrics? Has your survey raised any concerns? What is driving your concerns?

Ultimately however if you want a level of comfort re: these items you need to arrange and pay for appropriate checks by a registered electrician and gas engineer. Building regs, Gas Safe etc. are all red herrings.

With plugs not "flush to walls type" it sounds like a total rewire.
I'd get an Electritian in for a quote, so much quicker.

Then you have to decide how much you want it.

Hi, I can appreciate as a ftb this is all very worrying. Even if you have a boiler with documentation, there is no guarantee you won't have problems. There should be some record of adhering to building regulations- if not, I guess an indemnity may cover this? The seller should pay for this. If a new boiler is a big problem, I would ask for it to be serviced as part of the sale and I would take out a repair/maintenance policy which will help pay for any future work.

We had our house electrics tested and a new box put in for about £200- we also have some strange wall mounted sockets - 1970's build.

Ask your solicitors advice. If they are ready to move, I doubt they would like to start the process again for the sake of a few hundred pounds and additional time plus, it sounds like you don't really have contingency money and you may be able to renegotiate.

Good luck x

I've seen so many of these threads from first time buyers on the Moneysavingexpert forum. It is a problem largely caused by the law about rented properties needing an annual gas inspection. People that have only rented then seem to presume that everyone must have a gas inspection, and panic when they realise the property they are about to buy does not.

Many homeowners never have their boiler or gas appliances inspected. If you are buying a property then you need to budget to have the gas appliances inspected when you move in.

Electrics - similarly many homeowners never have their electrics looked at. If the electrics look old, then you should probably budget for a full rewire. The only way to know more is to have an electrician or two inspect them before you move in. It may well be that there is no urgent need to do anything to either the boiler or electrics. You are very likely to find the same situation in any property you look to buy.

CO2 detectors can be bought if you are genuinely worried about the danger.

Given the seller has already completed on their next property they presumably don't need the equity tied up in the house freeing up too imminently.

Thanks everyone.

My main concern is safety and not letting my heart lead over my head RE money. Although a steal, its not in a "desirable" area so is about the going rate so forking out on top of that for a re wire job will end up with the spend on the property completely disproportionate to the saleable value within the next few years.

I think seller could shift the property if it went back up for sale although the house next door is up for sale and has an extra bedroom but doesn't seem to move and he has had to reduce it. I'd hope that the seller can identify that this would raise issues no matter who is buying and would also hope he is now keen to get the sale through as he has now bought his onward property which seems to have required unexpected work as he had originally planned to leave the house I'm buying vacant, but now needs to stay there.

There just no telling how people tick though is there!! Worst case would be identifying the need for re wire and new boiler, approaching for negotiation and him just telling me to take a run and jump.

I'm going to ring estate agent to request when I can give a sparky access to the house, then get the electrical survey booked in asap. I think I will also arrange for the boiler to be serviced.

If any real life, non speculated issues are flagged up I guess I'm in a solid, fair position to renegotiate. Appreciate my completion date might be a long shot now though!!

Thanks again all for the logical, rational advice!!

Most homeowners would only call an electrician if they believed there was a problem, or were planning to completly rewire, not have them regularly inspected as a matter of course so I wouldn’t expect to have a report as such unless I had specifically decided to do one as the buyer. It’s not up to the seller to completely service their gas and electrics before selling. You can get a gas engineer/plumber out to do a boiler service pretty easily (we did just before we sold actually because we wanted to have a dated one for precisely this reason, we have FTB and I imagined they’d be quite nervy and want evidence) and then you’ll know the boiler works.

I think you may be confusing requirements for tenanted properties with owner occupiers. It’s not a requirement for any owner occupiers to get electrical or gas maintenance/safety checks (although obviously a good idea). If you are concerned then you may need to get your own people in to conduct the checks. In my experience most combi boilers don’t last much more than 10 years anyway so you should factor that in to your budget, it sounds like it’s already been factored into the selling price though so I wouldn’t necessarily assume you’d get a reduction based on that.

I think you are massively overthinking this.

A boiler aged 8-10 years old is not old. To see if it’s safe and in good condition you can get an gas safe registered engineer to do a service and check (probably about £80) and they will let you know. To be honest with you- having owned and sold a few houses- all boilers have the potential to suddenly stop working or break regardless of age! The best you can do is have them serviced yearly and fix bits as you need to.

With the electrics - same sort of thing. Get a safety check. We’ve just had one done on a property for £160 plus Vat. You should get a certificate from this.

Each house that I've looked at that has surface mounted sockets, I've mentally allowed for a re-wire. I've always asked for the boiler service history & generally not got it, but I've always looked at it when viewing the house & made a note of roughly how old it is, and arranged a service as soon as I've moved in.

If you were buying a house from me, at that price, & tried to negotiate so close to exchange based upon the boiler & electrics I'd tell you to do one, tbh!

Actually, the first house that I bought with central heating had a 20 year old boiler. It was great and lasted, with an annual service, for the 10 years that I lived in the house!

Yes, I think I’d be out of mind with stress if a buyer did this to me so close to the end. They are selling based on how the house is now and the price reflects that. To ask for more money off now based on the fact that one day you might need to do some work on the house is harsh! Not that it should stop you I suppose, but your requirements of the homeowners are very very high here. You seem to want a perfect house that you don’t have to do anything to while you live there for 4 years but you aren’t paying for that.

Thanks everyone, I think I've succumbed to FTB jitters and done a few too many google searches!!

To confirm though to those who say I've left it a bit late to negotiate - I've been chasing this response since early march! It makes no sense to order extra surveys/ checks if the seller had them so I had to wait for him to definitively say he doesn't before forking out myself.

Is the general consensus that surface mounted sockets require a re wire? I'm happy to live with them if they are safe, not bothered about aesthetics. I live rented at the moment and it has surface mounted sockets but we have been told they are safe?

Luckily we have another 3 months of our tenancy so going past completion isn't the end of the world, just want to do the deal so its definitely signed and sealed.

Totally talked me down off a ledge MN, thanks!!

No, surface mounted doesn't always mean a re-wire but it indicates that it was done by someone who either went for a cheaper price, or didn't want the dust & disruption of chiselling out the walls for a recessed socket. It was quite common in the 70s/80s.

I wouldn’t worry about the boiler but might be worth getting an electrician round for the sockets, either to put your mind at rest or give you a ballpark figure for addressing

Ah, just seen that you have 3 months tenancy left. I'd get that electrical survey done & if you do need to re-wire, get it done before you fully move in, if possible. The price will be cheaper, they'll be able to move carpets without having to move furniture & you won't be disrupted.

What does surface mounted mean - I am wondering now if that is what mine are? They are not recessed but are flush against the wall