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Original poster

Neighbour & Loft Conversion

30 replies

Tash123 · 24/03/2018 21:50

Posting for advice !

I am planning a loft conversion my elderly neighbour was fine about this & was happy to sign the Party Wall agreement. However her daughter has changed her mind as she tells me she also owns the house. I also have planning to go out at the back to extend the kitchen (single story). The reason the daughter gave me was she thinks it is over development. I actually won't be able to afford to do the kitchen extension certainly not any time soon, i told her this but do need to do the loft.

I was pretty much lost for words as my neighbour has extended at the back and also done a double story extension, My single storey extension at the back would not even go as far out as hers. I gave my neighbour all the details of the builder, plans, my number etc etc. I asked the daughter to come around to have a look, any questions I am happy to answer. Anyway as I first gave them the party wall agreement in February I asked if they would come back to me at the end of this week.

They haven't which has really upset me. I need to go ahead with the loft but am so concerned about the added cost of a surveyor but there is nothing else I can do.

Has anyone experienced this & what the cost of a surveyor would be. I will give her the final notice re nominating a surveyor nearer to the time that I start the work. My builder has suggested I don't go back to her again and if she does not sign then just post the notice as I have given them so much time.

Sorry this is a bit long but any advice would be really appreciated.

OP posts:
Fourmagpies · 24/03/2018 21:59

I would recommend finding a good party wall surveyor, they are worth their weight in gold. Our neighbour was difficult about our party wall notice, mainly as she wasn't sure what it all meant and what her rights were. The party wall surveyor was very straight with her about what she could ask for and what to expect but basically told her that she can't not agree to the works. It worked in our favour in the end. I can't remember the cost but it was about £3-400. They can't tell you that you can't do the work, the party wall notice is to give them a chance to appoint a surveyor and take a survey of their house in case the work you do causes damage to their house. If you can get them to agree to use the same surveyor it cuts down the cost otherwise you have to have 3 surveyors.

johnd2 · 24/03/2018 22:02

Sorry to hear this, presumably they realise the part wall act is nothing to do with whether they agree with the development, it's to make sure you can do your work regardless of their objection and that you only have to pay for damage caused by the work not anything pre existing.
Unfortunately your side of the bargain is to pay for surveyors who may be ambulance chasers rather than professionals.
I'd say post the forms otherwise they'll put you off for ever, then a least you can move forward.

Original poster
Tash123 · 24/03/2018 22:11

Thank you! I am not sure if the daughter does realise I did try explaining this to her but it felt a bit like a 'power' thing. Her stock answer is she needs to consider it further and discuss with her husband.

My builder cannot start until early September when would you suggest giving them the notice ? I understand they have 10 days to either nominate a surveyor or I can do so. I don't want to serve it now & then give them a few months to think about it - not sure on the procedure & how long the surveyor shall take. Do I have a surveyor & they have a surveyor (which I can nominate if they don't do so).

Any pointers on where I can find a good surveyor.

OP posts:
Fourmagpies · 25/03/2018 21:04

We found our party wall surveyor through out architect. Could you ask people locally for recommendations?

You normally need one surveyor and as they are independent and (as my surveyor put it) "work for the wall" so totally impartial. However your neighbour can request that you use different surveyors in which case you need 3 surveyors as you need a 3rd to adjudicate if the other 2 don't agree. You have to pay for the suveyor if they want a surveyor appointed, and our other neighbour wanted to use someone different from who we appointed but happy to share surveyor (just being awkward) so we used the one they wanted.

It's worth looking at the .gov website for info on this. They have a booklet with sample notices and how much notice etc, and what to do if the neighbour doesn't respond.

FiloPasty · 25/03/2018 21:10

I would do it now, we have a difficult neighbour who has appointed his own surveyor, we started in January and it still isn’t sorted.

Original poster
Tash123 · 25/03/2018 22:39

Oh no I suppose they can drag it out. I still hope she may sign but it seems unlikely. Most have a loft conversion around me with no issues with the neighbours.

Thank you for all your replies it is really helpful - I will serve her the notice this week & ask my architect who he would suggest.

OP posts:
MaggieFS · 26/03/2018 12:42

Has the elderly neighbour actually already signed It? Are you sure you can't proceed with it? Can't quite tell from the wording in the OP.

Original poster
Tash123 · 26/03/2018 13:15

Hi my elderly neighbour (who is lovely) did agree to sign and then changed her mind as she is led by what her daughter & son in law say. They have not actually said they won't sign but just keep saying they will come back to me. They don't ever come back to me but I keep popping round every other week or so just to be told the same thing.

If I say the reason they are now considering it may 'out' me - no idea if they use mumsnet. However it is a totally unreasonable consideration I was lost for words. I think they do understand they cannot prevent the works but don't want to come across as patronising as it just feels like they are making me wait on their terms etc. I have been waiting over 8 weeks now.

It has really upset me as I have been totally upfront about everything even before I applied for permitted development. Anyway I have posted a S10 notice this morning - I still hope they may sign but as other people have said I just need to get on with it.

OP posts:
Original poster
Tash123 · 26/03/2018 13:25

I realise in my initial post I had put the reasons she gave for wanting to consider it further !

OP posts:
GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER · 26/03/2018 13:32

Are you sure the daughter does in fact also own the house?

You can check on the Land Registry - only costs about £3 IIRC.

Original poster
Tash123 · 26/03/2018 15:14

Yes I already checked but to be honest even if she didn't then I still think my neighbour would do as her daughter says.

I did not want to serve the notice as I wanted to keep things amicable. I explained in my letter that I am obliged to serve this notice in order to progress matters. Not sure what else I could do maybe they just want it to cost me more / make it more difficult for me or hope it would just put me off.

OP posts:
InTheRoseGarden · 26/03/2018 17:08

It cost us £2200 to go through this last year: roughly £1k per surveyor (our neighbours wouldn't agree to a joint surveyor). I could write an essay on the topic if I wasn't on my phone.

In a nutshell, the whole thing is such a waste of money for BOTH sides. Our neighbours wanted to do everything possible to prevent our works going ahead. They got nothing out of the party wall process. The Party Wall Act is there to facilitate development. Your neighbours concerns about over development won't be of interest to the party wall surveyors. They should have raised it at the planning stage (and it wouldn't have made any difference then either). The PW surveyors will carry out a condition survey of the party wall and then draw up a standard award which sets out things like hours of work etc. That's it. They won't decide you can't build it. They won't change the design.

I would suggest a last ditch conversation with them explaining how much money it will cost you if they don't sign and how little they will get out of the process. Perhaps print out the government's booklet on the act and give it to them. If that doesn't work offer them £100 to sign it. Then £200. If that doesn't work try to at least persuade them to appoint a joint surveyor. If they don't agree you'll need two surveyors.

Or forget about it all and don't follow the party wall process. There's no penalty for failing to folllow it and your neighbour's only recourse is to get an injunction to stop your work. Do they seem like the type who would do that? Unfortunately ours are.

Agree with PP to do it all ASAP. Ours took months. Angry

Original poster
Tash123 · 26/03/2018 18:35

I took your advice and tried one last ditch attempt but it was just my neighbour & she said her son in law makes all the decisions. They are getting a surveyor. He deals in property letting I think so assume it is someone he knows. I probably am best not to agree to his surveyor I have a bad feeling about this & what costs they may rack up.

I am waiting for my architect to come back to me with his suggestion and so it looks like I shall have to go down that route. It is total madness but apparently he is the boss and not in the country at the moment but tells them what to do.

I don't know why I am so upset (a part from the obvious cost and delay) as I have so much more important stuff going on.

Thank you everyone for your advice.

OP posts:
FiloPasty · 26/03/2018 18:55

There isn’t anything you can do, by law they are entitled to appoint their own surveyor and you have to pay the bill.
You should appoint your own surveyor or wait and save money by appointing the same surveyor.

InTheRoseGarden · 26/03/2018 19:34

That's a shame. You would think if he knows anything about these things that he would know what a waste of time it all is! Console yourself with the thought that the condition survey protects you too - evidence of existing damage. I would also keep trying to convince them to sign offering increasing amounts of money

Their costs do have to be reasonable and it will be your PW surveyor's job to keep them in line on that front.

I can actually recommend a very good PW surveyor (South East) if you PM me. I have high standards. I can also tell you the names of two crap ones!!

You have my sympathy. Relations with our neighbours were already sour but if they hadn't been their insistence on wasting £2k of my hard-earned money would have seen to it.

InTheRoseGarden · 26/03/2018 19:37

Further thought: make sure that the notice covers the loft conversion and the extension or you'll have to do this all over again if/when you come to build the extension.

Alternatively, would they be happy to sign it if you limited it to the loft conversion?

Original poster
Tash123 · 26/03/2018 21:57

Thank you but I am SW London so if anyone can recommend a good surveyor near me that would be great.

I think going around again will be fruitless as its just my neighbour who just apologises and has basically said that they have to do as he says - I have no idea if that it true or not but it is what it is. Her relatives who apparently are making the decision will be outside the country for the next few weeks.

I have never really liked this house and like it even less now but cannot afford to move as moved in relatively recently & need to stay for a few years. It works for us re the location but I wonder if the previous owners had issues and did not disclose it as they had drawn up plans but never did the work. I know that they did not disclose the fact that a tree was causing a problem to my neighbours drive which I have since had removed.

I doubt I can afford to do the rear extension as I have to do it within a year of the notice. Ironically their extension at the back is right on the boundary & the fascia is on my side. Other neighbours have said to me that they are surprised they got planning to build right on the boundary but I think that building work was historic around 1985 ish.

OP posts:
Angryosaurus · 26/03/2018 22:54

So if you write now does that mean if they don't appoint a surveyor within 10 days you can appoint one on their behalf??

Original poster
Tash123 · 26/03/2018 23:05

Yes but apparently they are appointing a surveyor. They spoke to him ( he is currently outside the country) and he has instructed them to do it & given them a name but I was told who it was. No doubt I shall get a letter.

OP posts:
FiloPasty · 27/03/2018 09:44

It will be cheaper for you if you appoint the same surveyor as them, do you have planning permission etc as party wall you generally when you know you are ready to start.

Seth · 28/03/2018 08:37

Hi op

I'm in SE London and have just been through pretty much exactly what you are. One side fine but not the other. We both used the same solicitor (as in I went with theirs) and it cost 2k. They are based on Fleet Street if you want the details. I would say you should go with theirs (assuming costs aren't too high) to keep costs down if you don't get a say in the matter.

Seth · 30/03/2018 04:14

Sorry i meant surveyor not solicitor!

Original poster
Tash123 · 30/03/2018 10:13

Thank you for all your replies. I have contacted the surveyor that my neighbour intends to use but he has not responded to date. My architect tells that they are 'useless'.

My concern is the cost & also if they are indeed useless they may not actually understand what can & cannot be contained in the 'award' which is then binding. It feels all a bit OTT for a bog standard loft conversion. Has anyone been in a situation where the other parties surveyor is running up costs etc. I know the act allows 'reasonable' costs but that is pretty vague & can I raise queries with the surveyor if I don't agree etc or does he generally have a free hand to do as he likes.

OP posts:
Original poster
Tash123 · 30/03/2018 10:15

Ps when I contacted the surveyors firm the surveyor I spoke with (who does not deal with party walls) took a sharp intake of breath & did a lot of we shall need to see the plans etc etc before giving any sort of cost estimate .... that made me nervous

OP posts:
InTheRoseGarden · 30/03/2018 15:57

All the more reason to appoint your own surveyor unfortunately. They can crack the the whip if the others are slow and tell them to sod off if they start trying to impose things they're not entitled to.

I can't remember if I said that we ended up appointing a surveyor for our neighbour because they hadn't done so in time. The two surveyors actually got it all done within a couple of weeks. Both effectively a fixed fee of around £1k. I expected worse given how malicious our neighbours are.