architect problems - original features

[siftingflour]

Please help me.
I have an 1840 house which is very lovely. I am having a modern extension downstairs but preserving the upstairs and making it structurally sound.
I went into the living room recently and the builders had removed all the original ceiling roses and the coving. The ceiling roses had been there for nearly two hundred years. If I want to replace these with copies it will cost me nearly 3000 pounds EACH.
When I asked why the builder said something like they'd fallen down when they'd touched them and the architect said we told you that they might fall down when we did the ceilings (I don't actually remember them saying this).
I've taken this at face value but today I rang up the builder to double check. I asked him what happened to the roses and he said when they touched them they started to crumble.
I asked why he didn't stop there and then and ask me what to do. Why didn't he call me up or the architect to see if I'd want to proceed. The answer would have been no, I would not want to proceed as I love the original features of my house.
He said that normally they would do but they never received any instruction from the architect to preserve any feature in the house so they went ahead.
Who is responsible and how do I prove this?
I feel they should pay for the replacement.

sorry that was inarticulate. I feel the architect should pay. The builder is saying he never received any instruction from the architect to preserve anything in the house otherwise he would have contact me or the architect. I am paying the architect to project manage the works. the brief was to build an extension and do renovations upstairs. I said repeatedly that I loved the house and that it was old and wanted original features.

If you are using a standard contract then the builder shouldn't be removing things on site without a formal instruction from the architect.

Have you discussed it with the architect? It sounds to me like your builder has messed up, knows he's on the hook and is trying to blame the architect. Is the architect the contract administrator?

Sorry but I think you are at fault. You should have made it really really clear that the original ceilings should be preserved. They would have boxed them in to protect them. It seems that neither the architect nor the builder were really aware how important this was to you.

It's likely the builder has removed and sold them

Lemongingertea80. I said repeatedly to the architect that I wanted an extension downstairs and to renovate/restore parts of the house that had structural damage. I made it clear that I wanted everything preserverd. I said I'd like coving to replacing coving that had fallen down in the hallway. I said I did not want to alter the banisters (the builders ripped those out) or change the windows. The builder went at the doors as well and I was surprised as he seemed to have no concept of restoration.
There was a crack in theceilng and the builders were replastering that.

Is the builder stripping your house of original features he is flogging to an architectural salvage company by any chance?

He has destroyed (or stolen and sold) the banisters, doors and cealing roses? Totally unacceptable.

Is there a written contract of works from the architect with the builders? They should include your instructions.

I'm so sorry this has happened. I too would be furious. Insist every single remaining item is boxed in for protection. This should have been the first thing that happened.

Builders need so much supervision or they destroy things.

He has only destroyed one fireplace and the ceiling roses and coving are gone. He wanted to do a sort of botch job on the doors and I stopped him. the bannisters were in the garden and I got them back. I've taken window restoration out of his hands. the architects are project managing.

so now I want to know - who do I hold responsible. I've just had to shell out 1000 pounds for coving. I'm really cross as I'm paying the architects tens of thousands of pounds to project manage and either they are responsible (for not supervising) or the builder is responsible and the arhictect should have followed it up.
yes I have a standard contract.

Have you checked to make sure your instructions on preservation of specific features are in the contract?

I'm not sure if the instructions to the builder included all this. I"d been with the architects for six months. these are the architects builders of choice. they drew up the contract. It did not occur to me that with all that brief and agony they would not specify the ceiling roses. does this mean it's my fault.

"Have you checked to make sure your instructions on preservation of specific features are in the contract?"

They probably aren't. the architect drew up the contract. he did not sit down and go through it with me or include anything like that. He knew what I wanted so it's his omission, but not his responsibility.

They also ripped out a fireplace??

Sounds to me like your argument is with the architect but really you should have paid closer attention to the instructions and the statement of works to the builder. At least you have managed to salvage some of the damage and stop anymore from happening. Time to bring the architect in and give them a hard time! My advice would be to keep the builder on side!

What was in the tender document for preservation of the building?

How often do you have meetings with the builder?

Are you living in the property?

I would make it very very clear that all original features are to be retained and I would also go any check any local salvage yards.

Ultimately you are only a custodian of the building for future generations.

I had a lot of building work to a 1920’s arts and crafts house, I chose the builder based on their heritage credentials and they were absolutely rubbish, the architect totally backed me up and under architects instruction made them re do a lot of work.

If your architect registered with RIBA? If you feel strongly you could place a dispute but that would probably mean building work would stop. Perhaps you could employ someone else to project manage?

Good luck!

Is it listed? How are they disposing of items they are ripping out, clearing daily or skip on site?

The project manager should have the handle on this, and should be replacing at his cost any errors.

I’m only talking from how our commercial contractors work rather than residential.

If I want to replace these with copies it will cost me nearly 3000 pounds EACH

Plaster ceiling roses? If so, it really, really will not cost that. Have a look online - lots of places do them.

I’m sorry to hear this. I’d stop all work until you’ve gone through the contract word for word with the Architect. Meanwhile I’d also check his/ her credentials with the RIBA and Architects Registration board.

I know it’s not much help, but when the ceiling fell down in our 1890s house the only bits left were the rose and coving. They seemed to be more securely fixed.

If there’s nothing to help on the contract, I should think that the least you could claim for is lack of due care and attention.
Good luck.

I'm dubious that the features would crumble like that. They're normally pretty solid. Lath and plaster ceilings can often be a problem, but that is normally due to the bit of plaster pushed between the laths breaking off, which wouldn't be the case with features.

If the architect is the project manager then they should be taking responsibility and following it up with the builders for you if the builders have not followed their instructions. Is the £3k quote for taking moulds of your existing ceiling roses rather than purchasing a copy from that period?

Personally I would stop all work with both parties unless the architect agrees total responsibility. If you have told the architect to preserve all features and not rip out and modernize (especially things as fundamental as doors and bannisters) and he has not conveyed this then all trust is lost. If the builders have not followed the architects instruction then you need new builders. However as the architect recommended the builders I wouldn't continue with either myself. These features are totally irreplaceable - imagine if you had lost doors, bannisters and windows in addition to the coving and ceiling roses after over 150 years. Surely if they thought the ceiling roses might fall they should have supported them as you do when you fix them up. I really feel for you. Good luck.