London with children - Muswell Hill or Richmond?

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Hello
I've done extensive research on these two areas but can't decide which would be best? Can you mumsnetters give some opinions?
They are both very naice family-friendly expensive! areas.
I'm freelance though may go back to paid employment (London based) in the future. DH works in Cannon Street. Not much chance to work from home. Long hours. Budget is around 1.5 though renting for a while and hoping budget will increase a bit in a couple of years.
I'm more lefty. DH more conservative. Both love big outdoor spaces. More friends in SW London though know a few people in N London. Family not close by boo.
I liked the idea of Coldfall or St Michaels (know its nearer Highgate though this may work better as nearer tube) Also liked Tetherdown.
Also liked Vineyard and Sheen Mount in Richmond and also Deer Park.
Thought I'd prefer Richmond as feels less full on, the park, Kew, Thames,
Barnes wetlands - huge amount to do for kids. Felt a bit easier to think of them wandering round by themselves as teens there. Plus good shopping in Richmond and Kingston and easy to get to museums on the tube.
But Muswell Hill has great state secondaries, the woods, indie shops.
I've read lots on mumsnet and get the feeling there is a lot of tutoring in north London that keeps the school results so good but maybe Richmond is quite posh and not as friendly?
I'm basically just pondering aloud! Where do you prefer and why? Richmond is more expensive I think. Plus flight noise. Commute from both around 45 mins though MH nearer for biking.
Fanks

Wimbledon - you can get more for your money than Richmond
You’ve still got Wimbledon common and Richmond Park close
You can get to cannon street v easily
Great state schools - loads of outstanding ones although watch your catchment areas when buying

I grew up in East Sheen just down the road from Sheen Mount (although I didn’t go there). My parents still live there. It’s lovely but I always swore I wouldn’t live back there because the transport is terrible! We live in Wimbledon now and we LOVE it. Amazing transport plus beautiful green spaces, lovely community and great schools (private and state). I would look here. Best of luck.

Between the commons is nice but there’s no access to outdoor space (claphsm common small and doesn’t really cut it IMO) and it takes an extra 30 mins to get out of London to Richmond/Wimbledon

Muswell Hill if you can get into the catchment of both a good primary and Fortismere. Which is tricky and expensive.

If you're there, you can apply to grammars whilst knowing that you have Fortismere in the bag (and it is one of the best state schools in London).

I don't know the other primaries but Tethersdown is great.

Of course, if you can afford a house in the catchments of both, you can probably afford to live somewhere cheaper and pay for private school, which opens up lots of possibilities.

I'm not sure about the secondary situation in Richmond. I don't think they have a secondary that is quite as well-known (for good reasons) as Fortismere.

Between-the-Commons doesn't get you guaranteed access to as good a state secondary as Fortismere. And none of them has the vibe (liberal, progressive) of Fortismere. As a result, a lot of people living B-T-C send their children to private school. It's a very different vibe all round. People buying in the Fortismere catchment will tend to be people very committed to state education, liberal, arty, etc. B-T-C is more ... ski-ing types, rather than people who've read Freud and Zizek.

I spent my first few years all over North London. I love North London. I've also lived in Barnes which is the Borough of Richmond (I had the kids by then so am familiar very with Richmond's schools). So I can understand your attraction to Muswell Hill (which I used to haunt) and Richmond.

I don't know anything about raising kids in Muswell Hill. But look at the borough as a whole. I have to say, I LOVE Chiswick- where I live- but the borough of Hounslow can be disappointing. Borough of Richmond is excellent, school wise, services wise. Hounslow is, for the most part, grim with lovely, leafy, wealthy pockets. It's a pretty shitty borough but if you're in Chiswick, where the schools are lovely and excellent and everything around is lovely and wonderful, then the fact that the borough sucks doesn't really impact you much. Whereas Richmond, overall, is a really lovely borough with a lot to offer its residents, regardless of what part you're in.

I don't know Muswell Hill, but used to live in Richmond. Although it's a lovely part of London (well actually Surrey), we moved out when we had children so we could have more green space. State primaries in Richmond are brilliant, but the secondaries are not so good (unless this has changed recently).
The areas surrounding Richmond may be a better bet than the town centre. Look at Ham (though transport links not as good for city commute) and Kingston Gate. The latter is near the mainline station to Waterloo.
I afraid I have to disagree with pp who said that the Witterings are an hour away. It's more like an hour and a half on a good day.

House for sale in South Wimbledon. Close to wimbledon mainline, northern line and district line. Within catchment of 2 outstanding faith state Primary schools and one good non-denominational state Primary school. 2 local GPDST schools and of course King’s Wimbledon for private schools. I
Promise this isn’t my house.

m.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/details/45511593?search_identifier=81631b627fb8a500d291494a5b78f0e5

I don't understand this.

The OP clearly wants olive in either Richmond or Muswell Hill.

She says she's done lots of research - and you can see that she has from the OP. And a lot of that research is specifically about schools - primary and secondary.

She's asked for advice about those two areas only.

Yet posters are coming on with suggestions about Wimbledon, Between-the-Commons, St Margaret's, etc.

Why? She's clearly not interested in those areas, she's said so and she's clearly done a lot of research. I suspect she knows more about schools in those areas than some of the posters.

And she's listed state schools, too - so there's a good chance she doesn't want an area where the secondary options are often to go private.

Now, I'm sorry if I added to that with my comments about Between-the-commons - my point there was that there were good reasons she's ruled it out.

I'm sorry if I sound snarky or irritable but I just don't get it. It's like posting for a recipe for soup and having a load of posters telling you that a. they don't know how to cook soup b. they don't like soup c. here's a recipe for roasting beef instead.

It's odd.

And I actually wonder if some of the posters actually have children/and are interested in primary and secondary schools anyway.

Anyway, snittiness aside:

There is a fair bit of tutoring but that is true across London. If you're in the catchment for Fortismere, you are also within reach of a number of high-performing grammars, so Fortismere 'loses' a few potential top-performers to the grammars. However, it does really well.

The really nice thing about the school is that it is community in feel, with an emphasis on liberalism and care - that sets it apart from a lot of London schools - especially as the move within the state sector seems to have been to 'factory'-type schools, with quite draconian discipline.

For what it's worth, I meet a lot of adults who went to Fortismere as children, so the school seems to produce a fair number of alumni who don't just pass exams, but go on to become successful, liberal professionals.

The catchment is utterly minuscule: there are primaries in London with larger catchments. It shrinks all the time. I attended an open evening for prospective parents years ago and there were quite a few hopeful parents who were in bits, having bought in the catchment - or so they thought - and were realising they weren't and were in a bit of a state about secondary options. So that is something to be thoughtful about.

I have grown up in Richmond, spent a period of time in north London and am back in East Sheen (with kids). We are in the catchment area for Sheen Mount (reason we bought this house), and I also went to the Vineyard! Can’t comment on north London schools as that was pre kids.
But £1.5m won’t get you much in house terms in the Vineyard catchment area. The majority are upward of £3m. There are a few smaller houses around the £1.5-2m mark and obviously flats that are a bit cheaper. The smaller houses often don’t have gardens so don’t know if that’s important.
I would have loved to have moved back to Richmond Hill but with our budget we chose East Sheen and it’s fab. We have a large garden and a 5 min walk to Richmond Park. Plus Sheen Mount school and loads of families here to have a great social scene.
My OH commutes and yes Mortlake on the slow line but it’s a 5 min bus ride to Richmond if needed and he sometimes walks back from Richmond. I love the open areas, so much for kids, all the state primary schools in Richmond / East Sheen are excellent. Don’t discount the others (Marshgate, Holy Trinity, East Sheen primary etc). And the centre of Richmond is just a few mins drive. I would highly recommend Richmond/East Sheen, such a lovely area to bring up kids.
Only downside is the flight noise, doesn’t bother me as I grew up with it but they can be loud and the flight paths change so sometimes we get the 4.30am arrivals. Kew however is worse. But you need to weigh up that vs all the amazing things the area offers.

Another quick note on the school catchment areas, both Sheen Mount and the Vineyard have catchment areas of something ridiculous like 300-450metres. I know on the last intake kids 3 roads from Sheen Mount didn’t make it in. So factor that in when you’re choosing rental/houses to buy.

The cat - it’s because these areas neighbour her chosen areas and maybe lots of posters know these areas well and know they offer more to the nice, but somewhat over egged areas she’s decided on

Fair enough. I think I was strangely irritable when I posted my earlier comment. Not sure why. Almost certainly deferred, displaced and misdirected grumpiness from something quite different.

Sorry folks. Normal service has resumed.

I do see your point though. And op you do seem to have honed down your search to two of the best family areas in London. But yes, if you want more house, bigger gardens, etc just consider the areas around them too.

I do think that if the OP has the potential of a significant uplift in budget to £2.3m in the next couple of years it would be prudent to rent now rather than trade up as it is a massive waste of SD and EA fees. Maybe rent in Richmond for a year as this is the area you have reservations about and you have already lived in Muswell Hell - or maybe rent there for a another year if this works with your kids. Prices might have dropped in that time. I would imagine you might pay less in rent that double EA and SD fees on £1.5 and then on £2.3. This home is a really long term investment emotionally and financially. Once your kids are in Yr5 and you are on the verge of applying for secondary state you are committed to that area until the youngest goes off to uni - and really beyond as they want to come back to their home neighbourhood and friends network during uni breaks - so this move might see you in the same area /house until youngest is 21+.

I think that MH feels more connected and focused much more on central London life and that Richmond is very much it’s own place - as it is self contained - could be Winchester / Cambridge / Oxford in vibe maybe? I also think that Richmond and SW London is v much more focused on a wider range of private schools than MH. And maybe pop of Richmond is more the older cohort of the more genteel / conservative / skiing types and MH more diverse metropolitan artsy type ??

Just on the Fortismere front, the borough of Richmond has schools such as Grey Court or Waldegrave just as good as Fortismere if someone's keen on a comp with a paid-for catchment.

another20

I agree

Fortismere isn’t the be-all and end-all around Muswell Hill and that’s one of the reasons it’s so popular a place to live in - there are a number of good primary and secondary options. So you could look over towards Ally Pally at Rhodes Avenue Primary and APS for secondary (with mainline station into town and the distant promise of Crossrail 2), while East Finchley has Martins and the Archer Academy - all very highly thought of locally. There’s also sweet spot on the East Finchley side of Muswell Hill that would put you in catchment for Tetherdown or Coldfall then Fortismere and which is close to the tube!

P.S. thecat

You are cool.

I love MH. Richmond is very pretty but loads of traffic and not really London IMO.

Also not sure where the tutoring idea comes from - certainly not much of it that I’m aware of.

Oh cat I loved your post! I'm grateful to everyone offering views but yes, trust me, I am a complete lunatic and I have visited most primaries in London plus know last years catchments and even some schools pollution levels. I kid the fuck not. And I know what cash will get me in various places too. I'm even thinking I might start a blog as I am a vat of knowledge 😂

We stupidly moved out and keep bottling moving back due to lovely lovely childcare and guilt (you're supposed to live with fields nearby if you have kids says my guilt head) Plus we would of course be downsizing.

So now it's a bit scary and I just can't seem to be brave to move back to any of the other areas mentioned for various reasons but basically because they are either a compromise in commute time e.g. Teddington or nearness to big open space e.g south east London. I just couldn't get on with Wimbledon. It felt suburban yet townie.

So we narrowed it down to MH or Richmond as I liked the primaries there plus the other stuff - green, commute not bad, family friendly. But we can't afford much for what we have and yes they are both very different to each other.

I actually think both would work out just fine and I'm overthinking the whole thing. I think anywhere half decent in London would actually be fine but I've been so put off moving by making such a bad decision moving out I'm scared to make another one.

Bloody first world problems. Thanks all and I'm off to write a book about primary schools in London and earn the millions I need to move back!

Can I reassure you that when your kids are little you worry about gardens and fields, but that London is great for older kids and teenagers - and you won't have to drive then round everywhere

If you like Richmond and MH equally, then just go with wherever you get a nicer house? Does DH not have a preference either?