Any planning/legal people around? Advice needed (please!)

[OddMollie]

The latest instalment in a saga that has been going on since the spring, but I'll try to summarise! Basically - the house next door to ours is a large, grade 2 listed 16th century property with a large garden and various outbuildings. The garden has been built on in phases over the years, but at a distance from the house and with no impact on it while the family who own it were living there. They have now moved out and applied for planning permission to build a new property in the remaining bit of walled garden. The first set of plans they submitted were for a huge 5 bedroom house with an attached double garage with games room over, entirely unsuitable for the site. They withdrew those plans when we (and all the other neighbours on all sides) objected, and re-submitted plans for a slightly revised property. Again, everyone objected on a wide range of grounds - loss of amenity to neighbours due to size and scale, negative impact on a conservation area and on the historic value of a listed building, as well as a number of other things (vehicle access, removal of trees in an air quality management area etc - all quite lengthy and technical.) The second lot of plans were submitted in June, with the deadline for public comment at the beginning of July and a decision date estimated for the end of July.

That date came and went and no decision was made. We've kept checking on the council website and no further information appeared, until a letter arrived yesterday morning announcing amended plans had been submitted, with a closing date for public comment on the 2nd January. It immediately struck me that they must have deliberately waited until now to submit, at a time when they know people are busy and preoccupied and businesses will be closed for Christmas. Last time several of us enlisted the help of planning consultants, but I imagine they will be unwilling (or unable) to take on a new project this close to Christmas.

I know 21 days is the statutory consultation period, but does anyone know if this still stands at a time when there are so many public holidays, and so many people are not at work? It's a fairly controversial application, which raises issues on a wide range of grounds, so it seems unfair that they might get it through under the radar because no one has the time to go through objection process all over again. Would I be able to ask for an extension, and how likely would they be to grant it?

(If you read all that - thank you! )

There are five working days between now and Christmas and three working days between Christmas and New Year. I expect they have their own planning consultants if this is the third attempt to get pp.

You imagine, but haven't checked: why expend time and energy on something which may not be relevant?

It is a statutory time limit so no- the Council can't change it.

However, they will take into account any comments received up until they make the final decision, so people can submit comments after the deadline.

The Council will be obliged to consult statutory consultees and their own advisors as well - eg Conservation Officer, maybe English Heritage, highways etc. All those are likely to be out of the office over the Christmas period, as are the Planners so it is unlikely that anything much will happen at all.

Encourage all those you can to write as soon as they can (and also write to your local Councillors), but don't get too hung up over the date.

Thanks for your replies. That's good to know Seeline - I thought the deadline was an absolute cut off point, so I feel we've got a bit more breathing space now. There are retirement bungalows at the back of the site and I think a lot of the residents might go away over the Christmas period, so I'll go and knock on some doors this weekend. Thanks again.

Don't assume it will be a new project for a planning consultant.

Changed plans from a 5 bed house to , say, a block of flats and a swimming pool would be a new project for planning consultants to look at.

If it's still a house application, even if changed somewhat, many aspects of issues the planning consultants have reported on before will remain exactly the same. eg impact on listed building, traffic. Obviously, get onto the planning consultants asap.

Try to get everyone to write in , with as many points as possible, before the given deadline.
Further points submitted a couple of days in advance of the committee meeting, ime are usually taken into account. Will the application to to Planning Committee, or just get decided by the planning officers? If it's controversial, it will probably be committee. But don't assume that- ask the planning department.

If it goes to committee, and you have written to object, you may well be able to make your points in person to the planning committee. Or get your planning consultant to do so.
The date of the next committee meeting will be on the Council website.
There's stuff you need to know if you want to speak. Check it out, and come back.

Thanks for that DancingLedge - I really appreciate it. It's registered as an amendment to the existing application, not a resubmission, which I understand means the consultation period can be shorter, though the plans show a completely different design/footprint for the house. The drawings online are really sketchy, and there are no measurements and no site layout, which are both of relevance to the impact on the listed building and the conservation area boundary.

I'm not sure how the decision will be made, so I need to ask. Someone from the planning department is ringing me back on Monday, so I'll try to find out then. In the meantime, thanks so much for your help.

Any news from the planners Mollie ?

I think the interesting element you have glossed over is that the Council failed to make its decision when you expected it earlier in the year. Usually when that happens they know they will have to give planning permission for a dwelling, because there is no policy which stipulates this development is not to be permitted, but are in consultation with the landowner about the details of the building. The previous application has not been refused: it has not been determined. In effect, it’s an ongoing consultation. The rest of the gardens have been developed and this site will almost certainly be developed. If a Council turns down a planning application that is in line with their planning policies, they probably will have to pay costs at Appeal if they lose. They negotiate to avoid an appeal.

The timing of the new plans, therefore, is down to the Council not determining the plans prior to amendment rather than anything subversive.

My initial thought is that the amended plans are to do with scale and impact of the house in the locality. Loads of grade 2 listed properties have developed their gardens so that is not unusual. You need to read the amended drawings alongside the original drawings. Trees have to have TPOs on them to be saved. New trees can be planted to help with air quality. The value of the grade 2 house is of no interest to anyone other than its owner.

When you object to a planning application you need to read the planning policies about the area. It does not appear to have a ban on new dwellings otherwise it would have been refused from the start. However they will look at things such a ridge height, screening, window alignment, traffic management, and finishes. Around me ridge heights are being lowered by basement additions. You build down rather than up. A neighbour had three amendments to get what she wanted but it resulted in a basement eventually. You do not have much loss of amenity unless the house is very close to you. There should be a measurement on the Councils policies which will give an indication of what it is. I think you should concentrate on the scale of the house, the ridge height and orientation of windows in any objection. Scatter gun objections not based on policies are rarely successful.

Was out and about yesterday so just seen this - thanks for asking Seeline! No news as such, except that thanks to your advice I decided not to pursue the request for an extension on the consulting period deadline. Some objections have already appeared on the council website and I know other neighbours are working on theirs, so I guess people will still manage to find the time to comment, even given the time of year. Luckily the planning consultant we used last time has agreed to help again, which is a huge relief.

Thanks for your advice too bubbles. I wasn't so much glossing over the background as only providing it for context, as my immediate question last week was about moving the consultation deadline in view of the holiday period. Seeline's post made me realise that that might be a bit of a dead end, so I'm now focusing on the kind of points you raise instead. What you say about the possible reason for it not having been passed is interesting. It's a controversial development with significant heritage impact for several specific reasons, which might be too outing if I go into them, but I appreciate your input and will put it to good use!

I disagree with 8bubbles8 views on why the Council haven't made their decision. Amendments do not mean that the application will be passed. If there are a lot of issues, the Council will often try and iron out the smaller issues so that the refusal matters are clear, and an appeal will be just on those major issues.

Planning policies are usually very subjective - often it can be argued both ways. Cost awards at appeal are quite rare.

Trees in Conservation Areas are also protected, not just TPOs (I think you said the site was in a conservation area).

The monetary value of the building is not a planning matter, but the historic value is very definitely a planning issue. Councils have a duty to protect heritage assets, and harm to such assets is a valid reason for refusal. This includes Conservation Areas too.

Certainly the impact of the property on your amenity is a valid concern. However, the impact on the character of the area, the setting of the Listed Building and the Conservation Area are all areas which should be considered.

Yes, in a conservation area Seeline, and very close to a building of significant historic/heritage value (which is what I was referring to in the initial post, rather than ££ value) It's heartening to know that the council will have to take that into account. There will be some loss of amenity to us from overlooking and loss of light (much more to the people at the back, who are also objecting) but that's probably just one of those things you have to accept when you live in a town and I wouldn't object to the plan if the proposed house wasn't so massively out of keeping and scale with the relatively small historic walled garden in which it'll sit. It kind of breaks my heart that the owners are willing to trash the appeal of a beautiful old house for the future to max out on profit now they no longer want to live there. It feels like vandalism.