Extension electrics not done by an electrician?

[newmumwithquestions]

What can I do to satisfy us that wiring on a kitchen extension is safe?

We're looking to buy and it seems the wiring has not been done by a certified electrician.

They have no certificates.

They are supposed to be getting building control sign off in the next few days, but would building control check the electrics if the sellers didn't declare that they'd been done as a diy job?

I'm concerned as the sellers have initially declared some things that aren't true in the property information form, so I'm not convinced that they will be telling building control the whole truth.

We're due to exchange on Friday but are close to pulling out as there is a lot that needs sorting and although we know we'd have to sort some things, we're concerned that that very little has been done to standard. For example they have changed windows and the new ones don't meet (FENSA) fire regulations.

Shouldn’t your solicitor be sorting this on your behalf?
Ask for them to prove the build has met all the relevant regulations and for official proof.
I sold my house to a building company as a part exchange and they refused to complete unless I could prove the house met all the necessary regs. It meant I had to pay for specialists to come in a certify the gas, electrics etc and prove recently installed windows met fensa guidelines.
Stress all this with your solicitor and if it’s not materialising pull out!

I think it depends when it was built. The regulations changed a few years ago and before that you didn't need certificates or an electrician.

Building control won't sign off without electric certificate. They will have to pay an electrician to check and certify the electrics too.

Although agree with so this has only been the case for 10 years or so. If older work I think you just need to get an indemnity policy. Could still have the electrics certified. Doesn't matter who installed them as long as they comply

Building control will ask for copies of electrical certificates and wont sign off unless they see them.
Building control will also inspect the windows and won't sign off if they are not up to standard.

Well this is what is confusing me. They have no electrical certificate (we have requested it).
This is the way the conversations have gone (through solicitors).

Electrical work:
Them: we have had no electrical work done.
Us: err what about the wiring for that massive extension you did that houses a kitchen
Them: oh that wiring, yes we've done that wiring
Us: can we have no certificates for that
Them: we have no certificates
Us: who did it?
Them: xx builders
Us: (after searching and not finding them)... can we have receipts for all work carried out
Them: we have no receipts as they are a friend.
Us: yikes wtf do we do now?

Windows:
Them: we have replaced no windows
Us: err that's not what our surveyor says (it's really really obvious).
Them: oh those windows, yes we replaced those windows.
Us: can we have the certificates for them.
Them: we have no certificates
Us: ok, well our surveyor says they don't comply with regulations.
Them: silence

The thing is, the windows are above the extension not in it so we think building control just haven't checked it. Control have done one visit, sellers made some small tweaks and expect to get sign off this week. We knew we'd have to sort out some things but I'm getting very nervous about all the things we can't see...

On the other side we've lurked on Rightmove for ages - there is no other house that ticks the boxes we want so I don't want to pull out - we'd also loose our buyer as their buyer has to move.

Building control will ask for copies of electrical certificates and wont sign off unless they see them.

But do they always ask for them? From what I can see it's a legal requirement to declare work done... what if they just don't declare it?

Could still have the electrics certified.
What test do we request?

Any new work, building inspector can't sign off without seeing electrics certificate.

Any electrician can assess and certify electrics. Cost less than 100 ime

When was the work done btw? Up until relatively recently, what they have done would be considered pretty standard by many.

Sounds like an almighty bodge job. How do you know their 'builder mate's isn't actually them doing diy, and what have they done in the original part of the house?

When we had electrics done in an extension recently building control needed the certs but I don't know when that started.

Ok, I have been involved in the building trade for years.
The building inspector won't sign off the new build without a certificate from the electrician. If their electrician can't provide this, then they should pay for the work to be certified and signed off by another electrician. It's up to them to provide this.
The building inspector will sign off the Windows if they have been fitted correctly and meet current regulations, most window firms are fensa registered and can sign off their own work (fensa =professional body) but the BI will sign off if the builder isn't.
TBH, I would get a detailed survey done and would also go over the planning consents with a fine tooth comb. Better to spend a bit of time and money now than a lot more later IMHO.

if you have no evidence that the work was done properly, you must assume that it hasn't been.

Adjust your price accordingly.

Having the house rewired might cost a few £thousand. Depends how bad it is.

A non-compliant loft conversion is worse, because you have to pay for ripping it all out, and then doing it all again properly.

This is reassuring me a bit.

We've been pretty relaxed as we assumed building control checked these things.... BUT allegedly the last inspection went very well and there were only a couple of little things to change, so I'm confused.

It was done mostly in 2012 I think. But surely if it's being signed off now then it's 2017 regulations it should comply with? But if building control were going to ask for certificates, wouldn't they have already done so?

It's definitely a bit of a bodge job - we knew we'd have to sort various things, but assumed that it was mostly cosmetic- now I'm not so sure....

It might depend on when the work was done. It used to be that electrical work could be carried out by a 'competent person', then standards changed and any major work had to be signed off by a qualified electrician. My dad did some electrical work on my house which fell within the rules at the time, nevertheless, when I sold it I arranged and paid for a test and report to be done by a qualified electrician. It cost around £60 if I remember rightly ( this was a couple of years ago).

I also couldn't find my FENSA certificates but was able to get a copy from them www.fensa.org.uk/fensa-certificate

Tbh, it wouldn't just be that these issues have arisen that would concern me, it'd be the vendors' lack of transparency and willlingness to sort them out that would bother me.

Ah, cross post!

Buying a bodged property is a nightmare. Did it once never again.

Only proceed if you can get major reduction in price to cover the bodged work other than that I would not proceed with the purchase.

Thanks averylongtimeago. Would the BI check windows that weren't in the extension itself? And if so wouldn't this type of stuff be in an initial inspection? The sellers seem very confident that everything is about to be signed off so I can only assume that building control haven't checked certain things.

The offending windows are first floor windows that have been 'shrunk' to make space for the roof of the extension. But from what I can tell they are now too small and too high to be an escape hatch so don't comply with regs. Definitely no certificates.

We've requested the plans but haven't received them as yet.

I'm with *butterfly8. We have certificates for all electrical and plumbing work that we had done on our recent extension, so should we sell in a few years , they are all available to new buyer.

If they have had pp for the extension, then the size of the replacement windows above it will have been specified.
The BI should have checked that they comply with regulations about size, ventilation and fire escape routes. If they don't then the owners can be forced to replace them with one which do comply.

You need to see the plans, and the building regulation drawings and then get a full survey based on them. Push for a price reduction if you find anything.

BTW, if plans and regulations were passed in say, 2012, then it's the regulations from 2012 which will apply. Any new regs from after then will not be applied retrospectively.

Thanks, I think the plans were passed in 2012 (though I cant remember why I think that now!).

So you're saying that if the plans were passed in 2012 then its the 2012 regulations that will apply so any inspection undertaken at the moment will use the 2012 regulations?

When you say we should get the building regulation drawings, are these part of the plans or something separate?

We've requested the plans and I'll ask our solicitor to chase, but if there's anything else we should request I should do it quickly.

Yes, that's my understanding of how it works.

Building regs:
When you get planning permission, it is passed on the architects drawings, which show the layout of each floor, the elevations from each direction, aand a site plan of proposed and existing situations. After this is passed, and before you start work, you get what is called "building regulations approval". This sets out how the work should be done, for example details of insulation, timber sizes, depth of foundations, damp course. The builder then works to these plans and the BI inspects the work at set stages and signs it off or asks for changes.
At the end of the job they will issue a completion certificate. It is normally impossible to get a mortgage on a property without one.
The council should be able to supply you with copies, for a fee.

Also if you are getting a loan to buy the property then your lender won't lend you the full amount unless your solicitor can confirm to them that all building control docs, electricity certificates have been provided by the sellers

Thanks for all your help.

I've asked for the sellers to arrange a certification of all electrics in the house, carried out by a certified electrician.

I've said that I want the windows to be sorted at seller cost (and something else that the surveyor flagged - we did get a full buildings survey done and there was loads in it - some we're happy to accept a lot of it but there was something to do with the roof that we feel shouldn't be our responsibility to sort).

I've also called building control and they said windows and electrics should be part of the inspection.

I suspect that we're all really waiting to see what building control say and if they do get sign off then the sellers will tell me to bog off, but I feel more confident that they shouldn't be getting sign off. If the sellers wont either change things themselves (realistically I don't think this is an option as the chain will fall apart if it doesn't go through relatively quickly) or agree a price reduction for us to sort it then we'll walk away - I don't want to but sadly I think we'll have to.

I would walk away from this house sale.
Rent somewhere if you have to so your sale does not collapse.
It then takes the pressure off you feeling as though you have to try and purchase this property with a very sketchy history.