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Long shot. Any structural engineers around?

63 replies

InTheRoseGarden · 08/09/2017 20:35

Very long story short, we're having a loft conversion. We're using a loft conversion company who asked us to get a structural engineer's report on the party wall before going ahead. After saying it would be completely fine for weeks, the engineer said the calculations hadn't come out as well as he expected and we'd have to underpin the wall. Everything I've read says it is extremely unusual to need to underpin for a loft conversion and we wonder whether the engineer is being over-cautious. Does anyone know anything about this stuff? Questions coming up in next post...

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babyboyHarrison · 11/09/2017 08:49

If you still have the trial pit open this might be helpful. If you want to look at alternatives to underpinning maybe suggest your engineer speaks to a company called uretek. They basically pump expanding foam into the soil to consolidate the soul and drive out water thereby increasing the strength. It might also be worth speaking with local building control as the are likely to be familiar with ground conditions locally. Good luck.

Long shot.  Any structural engineers around?
InTheRoseGarden · 11/09/2017 08:49

New. Sequence of events was that we had the extension designed with calculations at the same time as pursuing a loft conversion with one of the design and build specialists. Work was concluded on the extension design and calculations and we had building regs sign off on it before the loft conversion company asked us to get a structural report on the party wall. The work hasn't started yet on the extension - the loft conversion was supposed to be completed months ago but has been delayed.

We went to the engineer we used for the extension to get the report requested by the loft conversion company. The original design for the extension has two walls being knocked through with two big steels going in. These were going to rest on the existing walls in three places and a new wall in one place. Now that the engineer has completed his report he is indicating that we'll have to put in steel posts and concrete pads below each of the ends of the steel that were going to rest on the existing walls.

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InTheRoseGarden · 11/09/2017 08:50

Missed the next two posts! Will reply asap.

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NotMeNoNo · 11/09/2017 09:01

Sorry to x post you. But if his company are big enough to have an infrastructure and highways team they will have their own geotechnical engineers and should be able to send someone out.

BikeRunSki · 11/09/2017 09:06

If the trial pit is still open, and the ground has a bearing capacity of 50kPa, I would suggest backfilling it asap.

whatsthecomingoverthehill · 11/09/2017 10:21

If the original calculations didn't say anything about checking the existing foundations before doing the extension then it is a bit of a concern. If you hadn't had this query about the loft then you would have been doing the work to what he had said originally! Building Control would hopefully have checked the ground during the work but it would have been a real pain to change things at that point.

Without knowing all the details and seeing it for myself it is difficult to say whether:

  • He cocked up a bit with his initial calculations and made some assumptions about the ground that he should really have checked.
  • He's now being overconservative on the ground conditions.
  • If there's a way of doing the design that would avoid underpinning the party wall.

It may be that what he has come up with now is correct. After all, it doesn't exactly look good for him to tell you that what he did originally was wrong. It's hopefully not something you would do flippantly and unless you were sure. But the way you have got to this point doesn't fill you with confidence.

(If at the end of all this underpinning is required, then Uretek would be a good shout if it would work for your ground. They might not be cheaper, but it is a lot less intrusive than traditional underpinning.)

InTheRoseGarden · 11/09/2017 17:18

No luck hearing from / getting hold of the engineer today. Hopefully tomorrow...

The trial pit has been filled in unfortunately / fortunately (!) but that's a very interesting read, thanks baby. The report has "soft/medium clay" written against the figures which is another source of confusion for me because I wouldn't have said our soil is clay-like. It's also not sandy or gravelly which then leave me a bit lost on the chart.

I'm going to read up on Uretek tonight and will speak to building control too (and my neighbour on the other side recently extended which might be a useful conversation. His house is a little older and I'm pretty sure he didn't have to underpin).

Thanks notme we're going to press him to check his calculations about the bearing pressure as well as the loadings as a first step with the plan to discuss a geotechnical assessment if he sticks to his present conclusions. That's useful to know he should have an in-house one.

whatsthe oddly I wish we were in that position! When DH spoke to the engineer the other day he basically said this is a totally worst case scenario and in reality you'd be fine to build the loft conversion now. Problem is the loft conversion company have asked for the bloody report to give everything the "ok" so they're hardly going to be happy to go ahead now we've got a report saying it's not ok! I have more to say in reply to you but my train is just pulling in. Will post later. Have a photo of pit too.

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InTheRoseGarden · 11/09/2017 17:37

Not a great photo and I only took one. You can see the start of the hardcore-type layer. Looking at this it seems as though we didn't go down far enough. Surely he needed to see the ground below the hardcore?

Long shot.  Any structural engineers around?
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BubblesBuddy · 11/09/2017 17:54

I am really sorry if my original post was a surprise to you, InTheRoseGarden, but if designs infrastructure (usually roads, drains, flood relief) and civil engineering work in his professional capacity, then structures are not what he does for a living. His firm may be quite small and many firms like this do not employ geotechnical engineers. They buy in those services. It is odd though that he hasn't understood the soil conditions because he could have found out easily enough and designed with all the knowledge he needs. It is not up to you to know the soil details and what foundations should be designed to take account of them.

I hope you get it sorted out. Please don't worry.

InTheRoseGarden · 11/09/2017 21:52

Interestingly the engineer doesn't paint the situation as involving an earlier mistake on his part whatsthe, just that his earlier work needs revisiting now that he has more information in the form of the trial pit.

Thank you bubbles

Hoping to have an update tomorrow. Off to google Uretek.

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whatsthecomingoverthehill · 12/09/2017 09:26

He's not exactly going to shout about making a mistake! But I would be asking why he didn't advise a trial pit in the first place. (And pointing out that it's a good job the loft company asked for this because otherwise your extension could have had problems.)

Out of interest, what did he say for the foundations for the new bits of the extension? If you are on clays then you often have to go quite far down with your foundations (depending on things like how close you are to trees). The existing house might be fairly shallow foundations (because it's old basically) but the new sections should be put in to current regulations.

InTheRoseGarden · 12/09/2017 11:45

They're just bog-standard 1m deep trench fill foundations. He isn't suggesting changing that at this point either. Does that indicate that he's being overly cautious in this report?

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whatsthecomingoverthehill · 12/09/2017 12:08

Not sure to be honest. 1m isn't particularly deep. But if the soil is clay then you need to know how skrinkable it is, whether there are trees nearby etc, so you can assess what depth the foundations need to be to avoid problems with subsidence/swelling.

If it is on clay and he hasn't shown anything about how he's come up with the foundation depth then I would be a bit concerned. It's the sort of thing building control would normally pick up on too.

InTheRoseGarden · 12/09/2017 16:51

I've just spoken to building control. The notes against our neighbour's extension say "hard, stony ground". Further up the road the comment was that they were into hoggin at 1m. No mention of clay.

Engineer has promised the re-worked calculations today again . No sign yet...

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InTheRoseGarden · 12/09/2017 21:11

Nothing from the engineer again. I've sent a firm email. Sad

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InTheRoseGarden · 14/09/2017 22:58

Right, DH has spoken to the engineer a couple of times. He has re-worked the calculations but says the mistakes make no difference to the recommendation. It seems to me he's still not calculating it properly so I've now sent him this which covers all of the brilliant advice you've given above! If he doesn't change his mind about it all at the end of this then I think it proves he would recommend underpinning the wall before hanging a picture on it Angry in which case we'll have to find an[other] engineer.

^ " Load assessment / recommendation
1 when I spoke to you earlier you said that you had taken account of the piers on our side by placing 25% of the load on the party wall but doing this doesn’t take account of the piers. 50% of the load should be taken to be on the back wall of the main part of the house, with 25% falling on the pier on the East wall of the kitchen and 25% falling on the pier on the party wall side of the kitchen. If you place 25% on the party wall you take no account of the load carried by the piers on which the beam rests. If any of the load is taken to fall on the party wall it should presumably be much less than 25%. If the calculation is corrected to reflect this (and points 2 and 3 below) it makes the increased load on the party wall from the loft conversion either nothing or next to nothing;
2 per my previous email – the calculations for our neighbour’s joists do not reflect that the joists run from front to back rather than side to side;
3 per my previous email – the DL figure is incorrect;
4 the foundations have already been proven for a higher load: the foundations to the party wall in the main part of the house must carry a greater load than the load that the party wall in the kitchen would carry after the loft conversion. This is because the party wall is taller (circa 8m), the ground floor is a suspended timber floor and the stairs run up that wall;
5 my understanding is that it is very unusual to underpin for a loft conversion. The percentage increase on the party wall involved here is very small and next to non-existent if the joists are run from front to back. In those circumstances an underpinning suggestion is difficult to understand;

Assessment of bearing pressure
6 as you’ve said, you’ve missed the section of the party wall in the loft. With this taken into account the existing load on the party wall in the kitchen must be at least 30 kN/m2 and in the main part of the house is greater still. As the building has stood in its present position with no problems for 115 years the bearing pressure cannot be 50 kN/m2 (24.5 kN/m run allowable line load);
7 having read up and taken some advice on this, I understand that the 50 kN/m2 bearing pressure you have given the underside of the existing foundations is extremely low. The description I was given is that the ground would be “as soft as butter”. This seems vastly different to the “hard and stony” description that the building control department observed when inspecting the ground for our neighbour’s extension. I was also advised that if the ground is really that soft the house would have subsided already (see point 5 above);
8 your assessment of capacity describes the bearing pressure as “soft/medium clay”. Is this a mistake or is your assessment that the ground here is soft/medium clay?
9 I am concerned that you have not tested the soil in any way as my understanding is that this should be completed if there are concerns about it. Do you have a geotechnical engineer at [name of company] that could be consulted?

We would like you to re-run your load assessment to reflect the points above and to re-consider your conclusion in light of the corrected assessment and points 4 and 5.

Please also re-check your interpretation of the soil bearing capacity. If it would help, we can re-excavate the trial pit to give you the opportunity to re-inspect the conditions, perhaps examining the soil conditions below the base layer, perhaps using some basic soil strength testing equipment and perhaps carrying out the assessment with your geotechnical engineer if you have one in-house. We will call out building control to complete their assessment too. [...]

You mentioned it today and we fully appreciate your need to be conservative in your assessment but clearly there is a balance to be struck. Ultimately we have instructed you to produce a fair and balanced report with appropriate and safe solutions that meet our needs. I am sure you understand that an excessively conservative assessment that will cause us unnecessary work costing in the region of £10k (and months of further delay) is of no value to us.^ "

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InTheRoseGarden · 19/09/2017 20:18

MINOR UPDATE AND QUESTION!

The engineer is coming out to reinspect the ground. We are digging out the test pit again (and going deeper). We're also getting building control out (separately) to look.

He still doesn't seem to see the mistake he has made with load distribution across the piers in the kitchen (or rather the lack of it) but I'll explain (again) when I see him.

He has said that the ground isn't clay and that the "soft/medium clay" description in the report is just linked to the figure he has given the bearing pressure. He said the ground is topsoil although transitional and that this is worse than clay. Is that right? (I have to point out that he hasn't actually yet looked at the ground beneath the stone chipping type layer beneath the bricks).

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SocksRock · 19/09/2017 20:55

It's misleading to say that MICE can't design buildings. I am MICE, I did 5 years of bridge design and large steel structures, including working on the roof of T5 at Heathrow, and have spent the last 10 years working on building structures. I'm MICE qualified because that's the scheme the first company I worked for put me on, but I am perfectly qualified to work on a small scale loft conversion. My chartership submission covered a bridge design and the design of a 3 storey steel frame for a secondary school science bloke. I cannot call myself a chartered structural engineer until I pass MIStructE, but my job title is Senior Structural Engineer.

NotMeNoNo · 19/09/2017 21:59

Honestly we all wish we could come and look down your trial pit! Hopefully some probing/going a bit deeper will find some firmer ground.

BubblesBuddy · 19/09/2017 22:34

Socks Rock - I would say that you don't appear to have been involved with domestic properties. Large ones are not quite the same and you work as part of a team. My DH and other Structural Engineers specialise in older buildings and difficult conversions. You don't appear to have done any of this type of work. What are qualified MIStructE engineers called in your company out of interest? Are any employed at all? DH submitted a bridge design for MICE all those years ago but would not have thought this was quite the same as looking at difficult property conversions. Hopefully you will be MIStructE before too long. DH is FIStructE, FICE and FICHE.

BubblesBuddy · 19/09/2017 23:01

See my 2nd post about Arup, Socks!

AGnu · 19/09/2017 23:19

DH is a structural engineer, currently compiling his application for the next round of MICE submissions. His degree is in civil engineering but since starting work has only ever worked on buildings structures. He does tend to do schools/hospitals so isn't overly familiar with domestic projects but his advice is to talk to the building control people who should be able to give an opinion on the ground conditions & get a second opinion. The 50 value did raise an eyebrow when I read it to him!

He's now wandering around our house with a tape measure, tapping walls & mumbling about wanting to take up carpet to check which way the joists go...

SocksRock · 21/09/2017 14:36

Bubbles, don't be so rude. Did you miss the bit where I said I had 10 years building structures experience? Ranging from small domestic upwards. I was merely pointing out that your assertion that MICE wasn't good enough could very easily be wrong. People change direction in their career, as I did, and can easily have a wide range of experience not easily conveyed in 4 letters.

SocksRock · 21/09/2017 14:57

AGnu warn your DH that I once got caught out by a homeowner who had laid a second layer of floorboards at right angles to the first... couldn't work out what was going on as the house shouldn't have been able to stand up but we resolved in the end!

NotMeNoNo · 21/09/2017 15:08

I am conflicted between flouncing off this thread as my company has now been mentioned twice as having nothing to say about house foundations, and trying to show that as a rational engineer I'm above such an emotional reaction.

There are lots of disciplines in civil engineering and it is equally common to be chartered MICE but specialise in structures or anything else, or to be chartered with a specialist institution like MIStructE if that is your career focus. Or both if you are desperate to do lots of exams. Like Mr Bubbles by the sound of it Grin. Although I have not heard of FICHE?