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Original poster

Right of access - changing the height

32 replies

GingerKitCat · 02/09/2017 00:01

Bit of a weird one Smile

I'm a mid terrace with right of access (deeds) through two neighbours' rear gardens, across the back of the houses.

When I moved in both neighbours had lived there forever and the gardens were very old fashioned/ concrete-y (ex council houses). The right of access was a very obvious concrete path and the two houses had even marked the start of their garden-proper with a low wall/ hedge. I'm rubbish at diagrams but it basically went house, small patio, ROA path, low wall/hedge, lawn.

Ownership has since changed and lots of renovations are afoot. My immediate neighbour has extended the kitchen onto what was the small patio but stopped exactly at the ROA.

I've found out they intend to put decking from the extension over the ROA and the first portion of the lawn.

In principle I have no problem with this (it's their garden after all) however I'm wondering if it's normal to raise the height of the ROA path between gardens. I keep the bins at the front but there are occasions when I bring the green bin round and fill it to the brim (keen gardener!) It's then extremely heavy and I'm not sure I'd be able to haul it up onto the decking. Ditto if I have any other heavy supplies to bring round. They also have a habit of leaving stuff in the supposed ROA (e.g. wheelbarrow, hose reel, plastic crates) which I have to move out of the way. Not a problem but I don't really want to be negotiating patio furniture/ outdoor sofas which are likely to appear there. That's a separate issue anyway!

I feel really petty but I'm wondering if it's an obstacle I need to accept? Their original design was a slate path with a gravel patio the other side (not decking).

OP posts:
steppemum · 02/09/2017 00:09

Not sure what the legala position is, but I would just go and talk to them. Ask what will happen with the ROA and the decking? How would you be able to get the full bin across the ROA? I would start with a chat about it. If they are negative/defensive and it doesn't sound good, then I would close the conversation in a friendly way and say you'll have a look at the deeds, see what it says so you can work something out.

That way you keep lines of communication open, let them know there is an issue, let them know you will follow it up, but keep it friendly, which is worth a lot in neighbour relations.

At the same time, get legal advice. And think - would you happily accept the ROA access being moved eg to the bottom of the garden?

Original poster
GingerKitCat · 02/09/2017 00:44

Thank you Smile

Diverting the ROA isn't an option for several reasons but thank you for the suggestion!

I'd like to think they're reasonable but in practice I find them awkward to deal with. They seem surprised and defensive when I've had to gently query things in the past (I turned out to be right). I don't want to fall out however I like to be armed with facts iyswim.

I've found some information suggesting the surface of the ROA should be maintained and replaced like for like. I also need to confirm who it legally belongs to and who is responsible for maintaining it.

OP posts:
wowfudge · 02/09/2017 07:20

I wouldn't agree to it tbh. It sounds like part of a stealth campaign to just take it over as part of their garden.

rizlett · 02/09/2017 07:23

Maybe they will buy your ROA so you can all have completely private gardens.

Though I understand of course this won't help with your garden bin issue.

Believeitornot · 02/09/2017 07:27

You can be clear - remind them it's a legal ROA and you need it to remain just that.

Our neighbours decked the ROA which was fine, but I asked that they maintained it as I didn't want it to be slippery and dangerous. They looked at me like Hmm but I didn't care. They did maintain it though.

AhoyPirates · 02/09/2017 07:33

Have a look on GardenLaw forum for ROA, there are lots of scenarios where people install gates that lock and deliberately obstruct it.

www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=8&sid=c00ac608612e8f54b9cc2f68178e4743

I wouldn't have thought they could change the height but I am not an expert. They probably haven't even thought of how you would get your wheelie bin across their garden.

Ifailed · 02/09/2017 07:34

I suggest you come to some amiable arrangement with your neighbour, if you had to go to court about it, they would only be interested if there was a "substantial interference with the enjoyment of the right of way", this is something like a locked gate, or fence. I don't think a bit of decking would count.

Spickle · 02/09/2017 08:42

I think this would cause a problem, particularly if you or they wanted to sell in the future. The title plan will clearly show the ROW, so a potential purchaser of your neighbour's house may wrongly assume that the decking was part and parcel of the land they are buying. Their solicitor will see from the title plan that there is a ROW and will want to query it with Land Registry. Once the potential purchaser realises that the garden has a ROW through it, they may be put off buying it. If you were selling, you will be expected to answer queries from your purchaser about whether you were able to exercise your rights over the ROW without obstruction or disputes. Clearly this is an obstruction as you can't easily bring your wheelie bin into and out of your garden. This would result in queries with Land Registry who will probably want the area reinstated to the original path. Even if Land Registry were happy for you to both apply for possessory title over the path (and both have it included in your titles), this will take approximately three months to rectify, by which time any potential purchaser is long gone and you will have lost your rear access. Not sure who you could speak to about this, but Land Registry might be a good start, along with a solicitor experienced in Land Law.

CanIBuffalo · 02/09/2017 08:46

You may be able to get free legal advice from your house insurer if it's on your policy.

woodpecker2 · 02/09/2017 08:52

This happened at a house I rented, the decking was over 30cm and appeared with no notice and the rear was the main access to our house. It was so high my mum couldn't get onto it. The landlord had the council planning dept involved and they were made to remove it.

woodpecker2 · 02/09/2017 08:56

It's your right of access although it sounds like you will need to fight to keep it open. Which will be in your interests but not theres.

RoganJosh · 02/09/2017 08:58

Given that the path is not at the end of the garden, but in the middle, and now by their house, and that your only problem scenario is filling your green bin, I'd probably just buy one of those large flexible bucket things to fill with prunings etc. It seems like walking that round three times isn't a major deal to you but would have quite an impact on them.
I do see that in principle the path needs to be retained, but in practice I wouldn't bother about the level of it if I could work around it pretty easily.

Spickle · 02/09/2017 09:01

A compromise could be that your neighbour agrees to put ramps in either side of the decking so that you can still push the wheelie bin through.

LIZS · 02/09/2017 09:01

Are they happy for you to walk over their decking? Our deeds stipulate that a certain area has to be kept clear.

SellFridges · 02/09/2017 09:06

How often do you use the access? It sounds like rarely. I'd just pop round and remind them that you will still need access and keep it amicable.

emochild · 02/09/2017 09:14

I live in a house with the same set up in terms of access

Next door put sleepers and slate chips across their patio up to the garden fence while I was away one weekend -I told them it was preventing my access, they disagreed so I invited them to move my full wheelie bin across the ROA. They couldn't and spent the next weekend removing the sleepers and slate

We now have new neighbours at the end who have the gate to the passage that leads round the side, attached to their house. I've been here 15 years, gate has always been there, never locked, never been a problem. Neighbours have put a lock on. My immediate neighbours and I have requested a key -their response is that they will leave the gate open on bin day and we should just knock on if we need the gate opening.
My teens and their friends are just climbing the gate instead -much quicker!

OP you need to maintain the ROA, it's not their garden and they knew the situation when they bought the house

KiteSky · 02/09/2017 09:18

It be easy to use a wee ramp for the wheelie bin so I don't think that's a problem. I do with mine to bump it up and down a small 1ft wall. (Although it full going down rather than up which helps)

If they leave things on the path then you could see how it goes. You could just move them and not replace them or you could knock each time and ask them to move the items.

UrsulaPandress · 02/09/2017 09:19

I find decking can get very slippery. They wouldn't want you falling and hurting yourself.

KiteSky · 02/09/2017 09:21

emochild
Neighbours have put a lock on. My immediate neighbours and I have requested a key -their response is that they will leave the gate open on bin day and we should just knock on if we need the gate opening.

That's definitely not ok. I understand them wanting it locked but they could use a combination lock and give you the code.

sunshinesupermum · 02/09/2017 09:24

It's the legal situation you need them to be aware of - for both your sakes should either of you need to sell your house in the future. If the deeds specify your right of access it needs to be kept that way. Good luck.

StepAwayFromCake · 02/09/2017 09:51

What happens when dragging your heavy wheeliebin across the decking, especially up over the edge, eventually damages the decking? Why should you be responsible for that?

wowfudge · 02/09/2017 10:49

emochild I would be knocking on for them to open it every single time or they won't realise how inconvenient it is.

Original poster
GingerKitCat · 02/09/2017 11:25

Thanks everyone, so many helpful responses!

If I'm honest it's future scenarios that bother me most as mentioned by Spickle The bin is a bit of a red herring. I don't like the idea of it being absorbed into their garden and how that might translate/ affect future sales. Ditto setting a precedent as the other neighbours might do similar.

Ursula I hadn't even thought about that! Decking can get very slippery you're right. They have nice things but don't maintain them for long periods so it would definitely get slippery especially from autumn-spring. There would be no handrail either.

Sunshine definitely. I don't want to start anything personal. I'll check out the legalities.

Gates are currently all fine. End neighbour suggested padlocking the one at the end and giving all of us the code but this hasn't happened yet. Sounds sensible to me. Obviously if the code wasn't being shared that would be different.

OP posts:
Original poster
GingerKitCat · 02/09/2017 11:41

Stepaway this is also a concern. I wouldn't like to accidentally damage anything. Their glass fronted extension is already level with my gate/ROA and makes me a bit nervous passing through. I wouldn't like to skid into it...

OP posts:
ArcheryAnnie · 02/09/2017 13:41

Are they all fenced gardens with open spaces along the route of the ROA, or have doors in the fence, or no fences at all, or what?