Survey says roof not covered by building regs

[Fortheloveofscience]

Today we received our building survey report on our potential property purchase (c.1870 built). It highlighted a few areas we were expecting (mostly damp), but the area of most concern is the roof.

Apparently it was first built with a slate roof, but replaced with tile more recently (still years ago) and this wasn't in accordance with building regs as the timber supports weren't strengthened to cope with the additional weight. Also it is missing ventilation, and the loft has been boarded with foil-backed insulation which increases the risk of damp.

I'm most concerned about the supports, but have no idea whether it's relatively normal for properties of this age - anyone have any advice?

it is very common for slate roofs to be recovered in tiles, by people who don't know better.

you should assume you will have to rectify it. Reroofing in synthetic slate will look quite reasonable and cost some thousands. If you are very rich or it is listed, you might use natural slate.

Adding ventilation is easy.

Do you mean the foilbacked stuff is on the loft floor (ceiling below)? Or against the tiles? It isn't sprayed foam, is it?

Thanks PigletJohn, that's really useful to know. The report suggests reinforcing the supports rather than re-roofing, what's your opinion on that? They did note some evidence of roof sagging from the outside.

I had assumed it was a foil covering to the loft floor, but on closer inspection you're right they're talking about the tiles having a foil backing and no ventilation gaps. No mention of spray.

Can I also pick your brains re damp? The whole house has high damp readings, but particular issues noted are:
Plants fouling guttering at rear - easy to fix I think.

Patio outside is higher than rear extension floor - potentially a real pain if we have damp issues at the back.

Damp trapped between paint and brick/flint at the wall - don't really know what the issues we with this...

Potentially leaky pipes downstairs - presumably this would be quite an upheaval if they needed replacing?

Some external walls 'dry lined' - what even is this?!

We've no idea what is 'normal' for a Victorian house and what would need to be negotiated with the sellers. Nothing's had a condition rating worse than 2 and I know they often give worst-case scenarios so I don't know if I need to panic or treat it as useful information to have, but nothing to lose sleep over!

What about indemnity insurance?
Is that an option?

I have no experience of reinforcing a roof. They tend to bow and crumple when overburdened. It might be hard to push it back to shape. An expert local roofer may know.

foil insulation can be just pulled off and thrown in the skip.

You can dig a French drain where the patio meets the house, but it is a sign of very ignorant building practice

An old flint wall should not be painted. I'd guess the paint needs o be stripped off and the wall probably needs refurb, I expect it was painted to hide the damage. Ignorant practice.

Leaky pipes are common in old houses. Might be lead or steel. I'd assume you need to replumb it, all the way to the stopcock under the pavement outside.

External walls drylined - it means plasterboard has been nailed to wooden battens covering the wall. It can be done to add insulation to walls, or to hide damp or cracks. Assume it needs stripping off to find out what it hides, then do it again properly. Should cost some hundreds per room.

If you know anyone local, get recommendations for an experienced local builder, plumber, and specialist old-plaster restorer. You will need to use lime, not cement or gypsum plaster. many modern builders and plasterers don't know how.

After you have repaired the defects, you address residual damp with copious ventilation. Your heating costs will be high.

Can I chip in a bit on the patio higher than floor?

We had our patio redone when we first got our house (we assumed the builders knew what they were doing and didn't know any better) and it ended up higher than the garage damp lining. We've had nothing but trouble from it. We ended up having to dig out a drainage channel and despite that and the extra money that cost, the mortar is still very soft above the lining with the damp that still gets though and if we leave anything with fabrics in the garage they get black mould developing.

If it had been the house rather than the garage, we would have had to get the patio lifted so I think it would be prudent to add some costs for that onto your estimates.

You're a superstar PigletJohn I feel a lot more informed now.

Will try and find local tradesmen I guess as next step.

Thanks again . We like the house but it's not 100% perfect even without this, but neither is there anything more suitable on the market. Other than the roof if we're talking hundreds rather than thousands per job we can probably take a view.

Thanks Flavia really useful to know.

As pigletjohn says, concrete roof tiles are too heavy on joists and supports designed for slate. I'veeven seen some contrete roofed houses, locally, where almost all roofs are concrete, bowing horribly, even after a recent re-roofing job.

I wouldn't have thought replacing the supports would be any simpler or cheaper than replacing the concrete tiles with slate or synthetic slate (looks a bit plastic, but seems to be as tough as old boots).

We're about to offer on a house with a roof that has tiny flat clay tiles. I suspect that's going to need regular maintenance, judging by the state of it just over a decade after renovation!

And most walls shouldn't be painted - it seems to be a trend to paint he bare bottom 3 courses of bricks, even though it often bridges a damp course and prevents breathing.

The bricks below the render on this house were painted. It started peeling, so we left it to rot as long as possible, then scrubbed off and loose flakes and found a more modern water permeable paint to cover up the mess left.

Long term overload of a timber roof structure will cause permanent deformation of the timber - called creep. It's not possible to reverse this, so you will need expert advice as to how advanced the deformation is. I saw a horrendous one at Easter (pic attached) and we've had to replace all the timber as well. That was the worst I've ever seen in 12 years of building structure engineering, but visible bowing to the roof is not a great sign. Do you know how long the heavier tiles have been in place?

Attached

OP, I have to be honest, after what you have said about this house's defects, it sounds a bit of a money pit.

A friend of mine had similar except it wasn't picked up by the survey. The house was eventually condemned and had to be torn down. They owed ££££s on a mortgage which the bank promptly recalled and they ended up bankrupt.

Please be very very careful OP.

Thank you all, I'm really am hugely grateful for your advice.

Socks that's awful! Really scary stuff, I find it so scary how many contractors seem to be happy to do bloody stupid things to buildings - fair enough I hadn't a clue about the weight of different roofs, but you'd expect a roofer would!

Pickachew interesting that a new roof would be your assessment too, I wonder why the surveyor suggested reinforcements - I'all call and ask.

Lucisky I quite agree! And paq it's useful to hear the horror stories too - I think people can be too quick to write off the surveyors suggestions as scare-mongering, not realizing that if it goes wrong it can go really bloody wrong!

Sorry Socks just seen your other question. No idea how long the new roof has been on unfortunately, and the way it's been lined means you can't currently see the timbers .

I think at the very least we want specialist advice on the roof and the damp, and a quote to see what taking back the dry lining and replacing with breathable plaster would cost.

Agree with Piglets post, and to add, you may be on a fruitless battle re the damp. Ours is a similar age, 1860s, and had suffered years of inappropriate refurbishments (incorrect plaster boarding, non-lime grouting externally, part rendered etc). Ours was built with cavity walls and air bricks at top and bottom of walls for ventilation. They also relied on decent ventilation to combat damp. Over the modern decades, the desire to seal up houses, cure 'drafty' issues, and install central heating etc flies in the face of how these houses originally kept themselves 'dry'.

Modern plasterboarding did indeed cover up damp external walls. Airbricks and cavities no longer work (theyre 140 years old, cavities that are supposed to provide ventilation inside the walls are breached or full by decades of debris, or even filled by modern cavity wall insulation), double glazings fitted, drafts are sealed.

We started on the same route youre contemplating OP, but it became apparent very quickly that the costs to actually cure any of the issues (dont forget your chimney...its a bugger for damp breaching) were phenomenal, and indeed we simply manage it rather than rectify it, and have now followed years of previous owners, tackling bad spots only when they cause an issue.

The reason I mention all this, is replacing the plaster more than likely wont cure the issue. Please do get a surveyor in who specialises in this age property. The vast majority of 'high street' surveyors deal with relatively new builds. We made that mistake.

Oh, and meant to add re your patio. Do ensure a surveyor looks at all footings. Ours was built with engineering bricks for the footings and the lower courses of external walls. That in theory works really well (its only engineering bricks that keep the water in our networks of canals) but, over the century, the height of the land surrounding the property has risen. We in fact (didnt get commented on on our original survey) only had 1 course of engineering brick showing above ground, when indeed the original base of the wall was a foot lower. Just something to be aware of when looking at your patio issue.

The type of roofing felt often indicates how old the roof is, mineral felt I think is over 20 years ago and it degrades, the breathable membrane felt is currently used and the stuff that went on my roof at the beginning of the year was blue on one side and black on the other.
Lime plaster is breathable but expensive. There are some good books you can buy on Amazon about doing up old house, lime plaster and damp. These are the ones I used. Good luck
www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0711227721/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1&tag=mumsnetforum-21
www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0952434121/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1&tag=mumsnetforum-21 Not currently available but a really good book
www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1861269668/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1&tag=mumsnetforum-21

The roof bit really isn't necessarily a massive thing at all. And not unusual at all on Victorian houses.

Our last house had this - but no deflection of roof so suggested despite heavier tiles structure was sufficient. However to add the additional supports would only have cost maybe £300.

Thanks again everyone for all your comments, they're really appreciated.

So I spoke to the surveyor yesterday afternoon, and her opinion tallied with yours daisy. She reckons the current roof's been in place for about 20 years, and if we were to give it another 10 we'd have a major problem, if we reinforce the supports now it'll be fine. She was more concerned about the confensation affecting timbers behind the foil, so this will definitely be something we get checked and then have the foil removed.

The rest of the damp is slightly more complex. Apparently the really wet wall by the kitchen where they've tried to cover it with paint highly likely to be a leaky water pipe, so that's a negotiating point but at least sounds fixable. She said that the patio/bathroom floor situation is far from ideal, but actually she was able to access all the back wall from the inside and the damp readings weren't bad despite it being rainy, so there's nothing urgent to do on that other than be aware.

The rest of the damp she thinks is condensation, so although we can make improvements in terms of breathable plaster etc it's fairly typical for a property of that age.

So we have a plan of action to:

1. Persuade the seller to let us find a good roof specialist to come in, look behind the foil and assess the state of the timbers, and quote for reinforcing supports.

1. Persuade the sellers to let someone in to look at the wet kitchen wall and quote for the pipe investigation/replacement (any idea on what a v rough ballpark for this might be?!)

1. See if we can negotiate the cost of some of this with the sellers and reassess.

Sound fair?