New Central Heating System Confusion

[Bettycheese]

I’m sure this topic has probably been done to death but I can’t find a post that addresses my situation specifically.

We have had an offer accepted on a house that needs renovating, including central heating. The house is a fairly bog standard 60’s built 3 bed semi with one bathroom.

Our current plan is that we will probably stay in the house for between 1 and 3 years and then sell; either with an initial refurb with the house as it stands, or possibly initial refurb, and if finances permit next year we might do the two storey side extension that the house lends itself to nicely which would give better proportioned bedrooms, a bigger kitchen, a utility room and an additional en-suite bathroom.. Given the location and price bracket of the house, when we sell, the target market will probably be first-time buyers. As this is not a high end property, we want to do the refurb to a good standard, but being mindful of costs, and not making it so high-spec that we end up not making much profit (plus our renovation budget is not bottomless).

There is currently an oil fired boiler but we’re told that it no longer works, and as the house is the only one left in the area that used oil, the tank is being dismantled so oil is no longer an option (we wouldn’t have wanted oil anyway). Gas is available in the close, but think we would need to have it piped to the house.

My Partner is extremely keen to investigate ‘green’ alternatives for the heating/hot water, whereas my gut feeling is that on a renovation for a house like this, and given the potential market when we sell, gas would be the best option – reliable, controllable, efficient, and being mindful of resale, people are familiar with it and see it as a ‘safe’ option. (It would be fair to say that I’m more risk averse than my partner at the best of times).

I’ve done some reading about what the alternatives may be, and have found electric (either storage or more modern radiators), air or ground sourced heat pumps, or infra-red panels. Do people have any experience of being in this situation, and advice re any of these options? Are there other things we should consider?

It seems like the sale is going to go through fairly quickly so we don’t have the luxury of too much time to consider our options, and realise that if we do go for gas, it could take a few weeks to get installed. There is an emersion that works so we will have hot water from day one, but the central heating needs to be addressed fairly quickly as it will hold up the rest of the renovation (ie decorating, flooring, new bathroom).

Any advice for a confused home-buyer would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Does your partner have lots of money and nothing to spend it on? If so, let him indulge his hobby. The return on capital spent is not very good.

However, if you want a heating system that works 365 days a year, you won't do better than gas, preferably with a modern hot water cylinder that has an electric immersion heater for the days when the boiler is out of action.

If you happen to have free logs, and a servant willing to saw them up and stack them for you, and carry them in, and another servant to clean up the ash (or maybe your partner will do these jobs, 365 days a year) that's a good alternative. Or maybe you're willing and able to do these jobs 365 days a year.

BTW energy from electricity currently costs about four times as much as energy from gas. The people selling magical electric heaters that make heat out of nothing will gloss over that.

Finding a buyer who cares about the green credentials of the heating is likely to be the problem. For most of the eco friendly ones you will need a storage tank of some kind. We are renovating our house with green credentials in mind, and we intend to stay in the house for many years, but are keeping the current gas boiler at this point in time.

And remember that biomass pellets are greenwash.

Your partner really needs to do some science and sums.

Thanks specialsubject - apologies for my ignorance but what does greenwash mean?

Thank you for responding PigletJohn, albeit in a slightly judgemental fashion.

I was researching some electric central heating suppliers today and you're correct that none seem to mention the unit cost versus gas.

Greenwash - fakery about the eco credentials of something. Examples - green deal, when prices were bumped up. Onshore wind in the UK, only feasible due to heavy subsidies. Wind turbines need diesel to keep functional. Biomass - heavily processed pellets from forests that are not replaced.

And the super Dooper electric heaters to which p j refers. A kilowatt is a kilowatt. Facts are not judgemental, or rude.

BTW I do have free logs from our own land and the partner who does all the hard work. Still doesn't heat our whole house.

To be green, use less and waste less.

If you are anywhere near mains gas, I would get it.

I used to work for an oil tank company - oil heating is v expensive.

DSis has Calor gas - expensive also.

Any kind of 'alternative' fuel would put me off the house.

I've just bought.

I'd want to see a gas combi boiler in that kind of house.

I have had storage heaters in the past- but you need to be on an economy 7 tariff (cheaper at night) which is very rare these days, and usually only in properties which have had it for years.

OP the properly efficient green heating solutions only work really well in a house thatsbinsulated to the hilt - and ideally a 'passivhaus' (meaning a totally energy neutral house with highly controlled air flow and heat flow).

There are few examples of city terraces converted like this but not many. If you want to have a warm house heat pumps etc won't work on a trad house.

You'd be better getting a really efficient new gas system with really controllable thermostat

Thanks for the explanation specialsubject. I wasn't referring to PigletJohn's factual information, but his slightly derisory comments about my Partner.

Very useful and appreciated information from everyone who has taken the time to respond to me.

Thank you Girlwhowearsglasses, this is my current thinking.

Oil heating is still the cheapest form per unit heat - oil prices have gone up again but I am paying half what I did four years ago and I doubt you can easy that for gas.

when you resell, your buyers will be aware of the high running cost of electric heating. IMO those that are still willing to look at your house will budget for the cost of installing gas CH and knock that off their offer.

I use solar electricity, and the payback is very poor. Most power is generated during sunny summer days, in winter I save something like £10 a month, provided I can time the washing and drying to sunny periods. For me, a heat pump was even less convincing due to the cost.

With modern CH, it is usual to have a programmable thermostat so you can set the temperatures according to time of day and day of week, so more efficient than older systems, and to further control each room with a TRV so you can change the settings in occupied and unoccupied rooms (though I recommend setting and leaving them, not frequently fiddling). In larger houses you can have zones, so, for example, the heating times and temperatures are different in the bedrooms and in the living rooms. This can be handy if your health is poor or you have a small baby.

The cost of energy is almost entirely in winter heating. For example in my house the winter gas usage averages 6 cubic metres per day, and in summer 0.7 cu.m. A cubic metre contains about 11.2 kWh and (currently) cost me 23.5p plus VAT plus standing charge. So in winter the usage of 6 cu.m costs about £1.41 per day, and in summer 16.5p

If, instead, I used electricity for heating and hot water, 67kWh at 9.55p would cost me £6.42 per day in winter; and 7.8kWh in summer, 74p.

All prices are per my current contract and exclude VAT and standing charge. Next year energy prices may be higher.

Please check my calculations in case of error.

Have gas if it is available. We have sir source heat pumps but no gas available. We used to be oil but access for tanker was via a neighbour's drive so we were not in control of deliveries. Ground source is mega bucks and only works in very large properties with huge grounds to dig up!

Thank you Bojorojo.

What is your overall opinion of air source heat pump?

Excuse a small hijack here, but if mains gas is not available would LPG or oil be more expensive to run (ignoring installation).

(Hopes PJ will see this)

I have moved into a house that has ridiculous log burning running the central heating, it is more work than the toddler.

Our renovation plans had us taking this out in yr 3 but its got bumped up to 1st place as I can stand the mess, attention and poor performance no more

We are in a rural area with no gas, so we are going oil boiler. We have looked seriously into solar panels, heat pumps etc but realistically if the stated results are true, it will still take 20 years to recoup the cost, and often these figures are hugely exaggerated.

There are a couple of threads on money saving expert about green heating systems that are very informative.

Izzy we have been told oil cheaper than calor

I don't know the comparative costs of LPG or oil.

It is said in the Energy trade that LPG is getting cheaper because less is being wasted, and that oil is getting cheaper because the US is now producing so much from Shale that it is now a net exporter and there is a glut. If something different happens, experts will be able to think of a reason why it was inevitable.

The Energy trade is subject to wild swings, often for political reasons including taxes, subsidies and wars. Supply and prices lead and follow each other, and bounce up and down, but supply often lags.

It used to be said that the world was approaching, or had passed, Peak Oil. This turned out to be untrue.

We have a ground source heat pump installed in our house. We will get back the £££ cost of installation in RHI payments over 7 years, but it was about £60k to install last year (and that was having the ground loops laid for not much, no bore hole required).

Air source heat pumps work well in warmer weather, but lose efficiency as the temperature drops. That's not ideal because you'll end up using it when it's least efficient. They are great for summer pool heating, but heating a house in winter, not so much.

Electricity is very expensive, you'd spend a fortune if you just had electric radiators.

From our research, I think gas is the cheapest way of heating a property, you appear to be lucky enough to have it near by. We would have definitely gone with gas if we'd had that option. The benefit of gas is that loads of people have it, it's easy to find gas engineers, relatively inexpensive to service etc. Any of the newer technologies cost way more.

Other things to consider with renewable technologies is that they work in a very different way to gas or oil. They don't produce high temperatures (usually around 45/50 degrees) so you need to have the heating running continuously. The idea being that you just top up the temperature rather than let it drop down to cold, then heat it up from there. It also means you need to have good insulation to ensure you don't lose all the heat. Finally you'll ideallly need underfloor heating or you have to massively oversize the radiators in each room to get the required heat outputs at a lower temperature. All extra costs that you wouldn't need if you used gas.

For the house and situation you describe, I'd go with bog standard gas fired central heating. Does the other half of the semi have gas?

I think the greener alternatives are something to put into a "forever" home.

Op, assuming you live in the UK, an air source heat pump will have great efficiency. The COP will typically be around 3 which means that you get 3kWh of heat for every 1kWh electricity you put in.
They stop being as efficiency when the outside temperature drops to under -5C (which isn't very often) but they still work.

One thing to keep in mind though is that they work better with low flow temperatures, which means that they will work far better with underfloor heating than they will with radiators.

Thanks to Ginny and PJ for replying.