Are we nightmare buyers?

[Elouie]

We had an offer accepted on a 4 bed property in February. Arranged a homebuyers report and got the mortgage offer quite quickly.

There isn't a chain so I thought we'd move quite quickly and in the documentation requested a completion day of 10th April which would have been 10 weeks.

However... the homebuyers report came back with some issues about the timber frame and also that the 2 additional bedroom and kitchen are extensions to the original property and we need to be certain there is planning permission and building regs for both.

There isn't! I spoke to a second surveyor and he advised asking the sellers to get retrospective building consent and to speak to the building company that did some work on the house to check some details rather than paying him more for an additional building survey.

I did had he suggested but the buyers have stated they cannot afford to get retrospective consent and the building firm is no longer trading.

I have gone back to the original surveyor to ask for a re valuation as we are now buying a 2 bedroom property with attic rooms that will likely need work to comply with building regs and I've asked the second surveyor to do a full building survey, a valuation and an indication of the cost of works.

We will then need to reduce our offer.

I'm not playing games and really want the property but there is now more work than we thought and we're not buying the 4 bedroom house that we thought. It can be made so but at a cost.

I keep reading threads on here about nightmare buyers. Please tell me I'm
not one of these?

I'm doing everything I can to move everything along as quick as possible.

Would it be a good idea to have a full structural survey rather than a home buyers surgery. There is a huge difference. (I always get a drainage survey done while I'm at it)

We bought a 4 bed which didn't have planning or building regulations for 2 of the attic bedrooms.

I looked at it as having no issues with regards to safety as both bedrooms had big windows and an easy escape route with regards to if there was a fire.

My issue would be if the extension was done so long ago and was legally done at the time how can you get permissions and building regs if these were things that weren't there to get in the first place.

We once owned a stone cottage. The number of surveyors who couldn't get their minds round that the cottage was 400 years old but there wasn't any planning permission in place and it had no foundations. It blew their minds.

Very few houses need just a paint job if they are a few years old. If you think that the staircase could be an issue price up for that and anything else you think maybe a problem.

I know I will have an issue when I come to sell my house as my patio doors were fitted by my builder and now you have to have a certificate from a registered window fitter to say they have been fitted correctly.

Something that wasn't thought of when the windows were fitted.

Ok - so 2 issues. One is that you need to get retrospective consent. If there is proof of when it was built that is going to be time consuming but easy and they are fools not to get it. They borrow the cash if needed.

Second the building regs - people survived, and continue to survive, with lower standards of fire safety than the current regulations. Some advice from previous threads www.mumsnet.com/Talk/property/1616667-Has-anyone-applied-for-building-regs-retrospectively and a local council www.bromley.gov.uk/info/200011/building_control/89/building_regulations_-_a_guide/7

I wouldn't be spending all that money on surveyors. This is s solicitor job.

If you're concerned about safety I think to need to know exactly what you are concerned about so you can then make a sensible decision.

Lots of perfectly acceptable homes would not pass building regs these days.

I'm not sure why you'd bother with retrospective consent? After 4 years there is no enforcement action the council can take. There is no financial incentive. It won't suddenly turn a 2 bed to a 4 bed. We bought an old stone cottage years ago that had been extended in 1973 with no planning permission the extension was a kitchen extension. Just because it didn't have planning didn't suddenly nullify that it had a kitchen. It just had indemnity insurance. It wouldn't have met today's building refs for insulation but our survey (full structural) stated it had been well built and was safe. We bought it and sold it easily a few years later.

You won't get a loan for a 4 bed, buyers won't pay for a 4 bed house if it only has 2 beds legally built.. So that's two massive financial incentives. THe OP is talking about the sign off you get after you complete the building works. Not permission/consent for the works. No 4 year limit there as far as our mortgage provider was concerned - our solicitor had to make sure we had all paperwork for all completed building works.

A regularisation application? The way the post was written sounded as though they were seeking planning permission approval?

I think planning is not an issue. Building regs is not an issue really as any work done 20 years ago won't meet current regs anyway. Get a builder to see if it is safe and take it from there. Someone else will buy it.

Thanks all.

To confirm planning isn't an issue as it is outside the 4 year window.

I accept it won't be the same building reg standard as today's alterations would need but we need to be certain it is a safe structure.

We are getting a full building survey done to ascertain this. If all is safe and their are no issues then that is all good. If there are elements that cause concern from a safety point of view we need to understand the cost to rectify this.

The other issue as pointed out is the lenders have lent on the basis of the valuation for a 4 bedroom house so we now need to establish the value at its new recognised 2 bedroom. The plot is huge so it might not make a massive difference but we need to have all the facts before we move forward.

Happy to buy it as a 2 bedroom
For the price of a two bedroom and make alterations to legally be a 4 bedroom.

I hope this makes sense. It's a minefield!!!

Movingonup we have identified the areas of concern from a safety point of view so this is where we are concentrating.

The majority of the building is perfectly sound and doesn't cause concern at all. Just the way the 2 additional bedrooms have been made.

Sorry I missed the word "would" out of my post.

I don't need to know anything exactly

I think I read it as though would was in there.

I didn't think you'd need to be bored with the finer details.

My head is spinning with it all I don't need to inflict that on anyone else.

I wouldn't touch the house with a bargepole - find something else. Its unlikely anyway that they'd drop the price to that of a 2 bed anyway.

I don't see the issue here. The house is a 4 bed, but not according to current regs, which presumably aren't retrospective. If the bedrooms passed building regs at the time, and there have been no issues in the intervening years, why would you think it is not a safe structure? My house was built in the 1830s, the pils house in the 1500s....there weren't building regs then for any alterations, yet both houses are still standing and fine.

if its been the way it is now for over 20 yrs I would imagine its safe - the surveyor will be keeping to within the law to cover his own back - it doesn't mean the house of the changes are unsafe.

when we bought our house 10 yrs ago the surveyor pointed out about 10 things in the house that didn't meet current regulations - the house was built nearly 200 yrs ago so why would it meet current regulations. One of the items it didn't meet regulations on was a roof on the stairs wasnt 2m tall so anyone who was over 2m tall might hit their head - he told us we should really modify the roof to give us the additional head height - really who would change the roof on a 200 yr old building to give you an extra 10cm of head height - NO ONE would do it - rules are bonkers. he only did all that to cover his back though as in reality none of it matters...

he also went on about the roof on our garage - said it was going to blow off because it wasnt fixed correctly. given the garage has been standing for 36 yrs and the roof hasn't blown off yet I very much doubt its going to blow off any time soon - when I pointed that out to him he said that didn't matter it still might happen - really...

Again all hes doing is covering his own back because standards have changed over the years.

I'd be concerned about what would happen when I wanted to sell it on in the future.

I wouldn't go as far as a nightmare buyer but I also don't see the issue with the house.

Firstly - I would never have a homebuyer's survey. They just highlight a load of problems that 'might be there' to cover the surveyor's arse as the survey is so quick. Proper survey comes with loads of info on what you should really worry about and what isn't actually a big deal in real life.

There is no planning issue with this house. The extension doesn't meet current building regs but it's older so it would be very unlikely to. The end.

I live in a 1300s house with no foundations with a 1970s extension with no planning permission. Full survey revealed loads of stuff that didn't meet current building regs but I also got to talk to the surveyor who basically said whether it was sturdy or not. Main issue was if I wanted to change it, I had to stand by modern building regs but what was up, could happily be left.

And yes I did get a mortgage as a 3 bed, despite the lack of planning/building regs for the 3rd bedroom.

Previous house had a 'loft conversion' that wasn't. I used it as a spare bedroom, previous owner used it as a bedroom, I'm sure subsequent owners have used it as a bedroom. Doesn't meet building regs as a bedroom but that's house buying.

Selling a 400 year old thatched cottage that had 7 ft thick walls and had been the subject of a debate that it could take a direct hit from a nuclear bomb and the walls would still be intact we were told that the first surveyor that our buyers sent said it was about to fall down. The structural engineer which the buyers paid several hundred pounds for came in jumped up and down in the living room said there was nothing wrong then proceeded to have a cup of tea and a nice chat. He had one cursory glance round the rooms then left.
Unfortunately surveyors are so careful to not make a mistake that they cant see the wood for the trees.
I tried to buy one place which had absolutely nothing wrong with it and was told by the mortgage surveyor it was worth nothing because it didn't have windows.

The window glass had been taken out and was in the rooms and the windows had been boarded u p with metal shutters.

Nothing would dissuade her and make her see sense
She even mentioned that it was not suitable for me as it only had 2 bedrooms and I had 2 children. Couldn't get her mind round buy to let

Nope, you sounds like perfectly reasonable buyers to me. This is definitely something that needs to be cleared up before you continue.

This situation comes up a lot, you'd be surprised how many people don't have building regs for extensions. There are two responses from buyers 1. Accept an indemnity but get it checked out by a surveyor to make sure all is safe maybe ask for a price reneg but remember the seller doesn't have to agree. Don't expect the reneg to be huge. 2. Ask for a price reduction to reflect the cost of getting retrospective building regs, expect this to be turned down and walk away.

It's really that simple, a lot of buyers will be happy with an indemnity so long as it's been given the all clear by a surveyor, but if your not then you can't demand or expect your sellers to agree so you need to be prepared to walk.

Ultimately the house is worth what the mortgage company is prepared to loan for it.

If mortgage company prepared to agree the value, then fine.

I've once had them value it slightly less than I'd offered. We had to go back to the sellers - obvs they were free to turn me down and seek a new buyer but they also had to realise that another buyer + mortgage company might come up with the same lower valuation.

My seller stuck with me and accepted the hit.

So whether your house is a 4 bed with 2 bed rooms in an old, non-building regs extension, or a 2 bed with a lean-to is ultimately not your or your surveyor's decision. It's your mortgage valuers. They will probably have seen this situation over and over before.

Unfortunately there is unlikely to be an easy solution here and in these circumstances a compromise is the norm and it depends on who is in the best negotiating position

Unlikely the Council will grant retrospective consent as the regulations change all the time

The council may require substantial work to be done

Often you cannot get indemnity insurance if the council are alerted to the problem

The mortgage company may or may not be bothered depending on loan to value

A lot of people would go ahead

I am risk adverse and wouldn't but lots would if it was all done years ago and there is an indemnity

What is the market like where you are
Can you get a similar property for the same money

There is virtually no chance of the council taking any action

Your risk is tjhat the lack of documentation would adversely affect the marketability on a resale

Generally an indemnity covers a buyer so that should the council be alerted and ask the buyer after purchase to do some alterations then the insurance will cover it. And once you or seller tells the council the house has been extended then the indemnity falls away. And you will still not have planning permission, building regs sign off etc so when you come to sell your next buyer will expect s significant discount. The mortgage valuation will be based on fact it's a two bed, not a 4 bed. If you are happy to take the risk, sort the paperwork after purchase and get a big enough discount to account for fact you may need to replace staircase then go ahead. You could get chartered building surveyor to your property with you and tell you the cost to correct. You can also talk to local
Building Control and local council on a no names basis. They can give you advice. We had same issue on a buy to let flat and I had three or 4 conversations with council without disclosing the address.

Thank you all.

The council aren't aware at the moment so indemnity shouldn't be a problem.

Our way forward is clear. Establish what the value is that will be accepted by the lenders to continue with the process. And establish if all is safe.

If this is the case then all is well.

If I haven't made it clear apologies but we don't expect the sellers to reduce so we can confirm to current regs as clearly this would cost a fortune and many houses wouldn't pass current regs they change all the time.

We just want the house to be sound and ensure the mortgage is doable.

Many of your comments re current vs historical regs are what made me question whether we are being a nightmare. But I'm not trying to be awkward we appreciate it has stood for 20 years and hasn't fallen down so it must be sound but I need to be able to sleep at night too.