Help us renovate our dream home

[FourOnTheHill]

Edwardian 3 bed end of terrace, needs everything doing really. We have a budget of 25-30k for renovation. All tips gratefully received especially what would you prioritise and what order should we do stuff in so as not to have one job wreck the previous one. We can't afford to do everything we want to do.

Front of property: needs renovation including original front door renovation, pebble dash removal, painting of plasterwork around windows.

Windows: old double glazing think we'll keep it for now and get proper double glazed wooden sash windows eventually

Hall: needs re flooring and decorating. Will probably go for solid wood.

Living room: (knocked through to dining room): needs redecorating, new floor, fireplaces reinstating (will prob get wood burner for front end)may need walls skimmed before painting

Kitchen: original scullery. We hope to extend this into what is currently a conservatory, meaning we'd take down the conservatory and get a new built kitchen extension. We can't afford this yet so will leave the kitchen for now (will probs start new thread about extending)

Utility/ downstairs shower room: we'll leave it for now, it's not bad

Stairs: remove 50 layers of paint from banisters, re carpet

Upstairs: needs new flooring (prob carpet) throughout, wallpaper removing, redecorating, may need walls skimming

Loft: we want to get it insulated and boarded.

There's probably loads more we need to do that we haven't even figured out yet but where should we start? Do floors come first or last? Will the pebbledash removal be very dusty, should we get that over first?

We will be looking at using breathable materials (lime pointing and breathable paints etc) throughout and eco friendly credentials are also important to us, so eg. loft insulation will probably be sheep's wool or similar. Any eco friendly tips also gratefully received.

Thanks!

Ps former mumsnetter, I left after I was on the heartbleed hacked list but have decided to re join

Ah interesting, I had a quick google of underfloor heating and pianos and only read dire warnings. But good to know it can be worked around. I imagine one could lay the heating so it wasn't directly under the piano if you know where the piano is going to live?

Don't hate me... but it's best to start with the boring jobs the results of which you don't even see

1. Stop anything that is causing damage - i.e. patch up any leaks, sort out any dodgy gas appliances, get re-rendering done if water is coming in.
2. Make your 'infrastructure' safe: rewire the house's electrics, sort out all the pipes, get the central heating done.
3. Make it comfortable - insulate the loft, think about wall insulation if it's cold, new bathroom.
4. Replaster.
5. Decorate and install new floors in rooms that won't be extened
6. Sort extension when you have the cash!

We have done this kind of thing a couple of years ago and had a similar budget (and similar aspirarions). We worked with builders we knew and mow here near lonion ar the south so much cheaper. As we started we realised heating/plumbing was much more expensive than thought as a lot had been hidden. So no nice radiators or fancy underfloor heating. Next it became clear it needed rewired. Another large chunk of budget gone. We stuck to a couple of things such as decent (but cheap end of joblots) tiles and wooden floors downstairs. We needed very little structural work but there was water damage to the back and guttering to be replaced. The new wooden windows quickly became cheap and nast pvc. We had 70's single softwood glazing with most of the frames rotten away. All the nice visible things have had to wait and will have to wait. Upstairs is paint on knackered woodboards and the plaster is old and bumpy with lots of white paint over it. Your budget is not realistic for your plans. Okay loft did get insulated.

leave the outside of the house just now, your living spaces always come first.

your budget wont go very far - for what you want to do I would expect you would need nearly 3 times what you have set aside.

inside do any building (that includes boiler changes, radiator changes, knocking down walls etc) and plastering work first - if you need electrical work done get it done before plastering - they are the things that cause lots of dust and dirt in the house and it seems to take forever to get rid of the dust. once you get them out the way do any decoration, then paint then flooring last.

Another SE London blow in with two small kids and have refurbed two houses now.

I fully agree with Shovetheholly and have learned it the hard way with the first house. You will NOT want to rewire freshly painted rooms etc.

If however, this is not your forever house and you expect to leave London within 3 yrs for the Home Counties then actually doing the front of the house and making it decoratively pretty can make a home very saleable quickly. More than 3 yrs you will regret spending your capital sum on something that you've had little long term benefit from while your kids crash about. In my experience you will also find the cash and the personal motivation from somewhere to incrementally decorate as you go, but saving large amounts of money to blitz it will be far more difficult.

In 3-5 years with home appreciation in London it may also be possible to remortgage and take out £50k to do a kitchen extension.

Start with the fundamentals: Heating, electrics, insulation. You won't look so kindly on the freshly decorated home when you are literally freezing your arse off especially with small coughing children or wondering if your chargers are going to set something on fire.

If the windows are up to scratch then leave those for now and get some decent lined curtains.

Hall way floor - unless you have decent side access for workmen, prams, scooters, bikes then I would also tile. We've laid a hardwood hallway, mid terrace and 2.5 yrs later it needs some serious attention.

With small kids a decent warm bathroom was a necessity for both of us and we prioritised that after the boring stuff.

Then the kitchen - Ikea, Howdens or Benchmarx will get you an interim kitchen for 10 yrs.

Lining paper is a godsend especially for hallways which are extortionate to redecorate. If you will have tradespeople coming through the hallway to do work then leave it other than a coat of paint. It will get trashed.

Honestly, you are going to spend your entire budget on the basics especially if you are reinstating fireplaces etc. With VAT at 20%, you will need to learn to do a lot of the basic decoration yourself.

Last word, it is really worth approaching tradespeople from outside London for quotes. A friend had a team of builders from the West country do her kitchen extension. They stayed in B&B's during the week and didn't work Saturdays but did longer week days. She saved £15k on quotes. Ditto for a friend who got his parents reliable decorator down from Cumbria. He got a week in London and stayed in the spare room and my friend had his new flat completely redecorated in a week before moving in for half the cost.

A few things to reduce costs.

1. do the upstairs parts yourself. Basically move kids into your room or a room together whilst the other is done. So own room at a time.

2. having loft done first is best as then you can move loads of stuff from the rooms being decorate do to the boarded loft so it's out the way whilst the room is done.

I would do

1st) paint front pebble dash and new door

2nd) board loft and insulate

3. do living room decorate, wall and fireplace

That will use up most of budget tbh. Then front looks good, loft useable, and nice living space. Then the other parts are smaller like upstairs, hallways and can be done more gradually and more yourselves as money available. I would do all the walls and sanding yourselves, floors get someone in.

Ok great thanks for all the advice. I'm hoping this will be our forever home, and want kids to grow up here, so not looking to tart up the front for re selling- that's for me!

To be clear- the windows are already double glazed though oldish, they're fine and not a job I was planning to do soon.

I do now appreciate that electrics and plumbing come first. This is why I wrote the post really, so as not to get things in the wrong order and bugger up stuff we'd paid good money to put right. So thank you all for your insistence on this!

Yes we have friends who were able to remortgage (in London) within 6 months to cover their extension! Insane market it is here. Hoping not to do that but it's always something we can look at if we finally make up our minds what to do downstairs and can't afford to do it.

Tiled hallways are glorious so thank you for reminding me how much I love them. We will tile once pluming and electrics sorted. I also love tiled front paths but don't tempt me to start thinking about that... Our driveway is perfectly ok and quite recently done.

Love the tip about tradespeople from out of London. We actually have 2 spare rooms as the dc sleep with us so they could even stay here if we got some personal recommendations. Will ask friends in the shires

Will re read all your replies and consult with DH. Very excited even about plumbing now

Also, I probably wasn't clear enough about several things in my OP, partly because we aren't clear yet about some things, and partly because of typing fast before DC climb on me again.

I shouldn't have mentioned budget at all because my post wasn't really 'can we afford to do all this?', (we can't at the moment) but more 'what is the most sensible order in which to completely renovate a house?'

Would love any more thoughts on, for example,

Pebbledash removal: is it likely to cause a lot of dust and mess that will get inside the house? We do have very good side access btw although not sure this is relevant for this job as it's just the front.

Fireplaces/ log burner etc presumably should go in before any form of decoration and floor?

We probably won't do this but can one reinstate a dividing wall between living room and dining room? Does it then become load bearing again? (Assuming not, and that you wouldn't want to take out an RSJ either). Can you knock through a kitchen- dining room wall if the living room / dining one has already been taken out?

Will a kitchen extension (which we may be able to fund once I'm back at work full time) be likely to mess up a new floor in the lounge/ dining room? Should we just leave the whole downstairs until we extend? It's not terrible or unsanitary, just old and not to our taste.

at your excitement about plumbing. It can be a bit confusing figuring out the order of projects at first, but you'll soon get the hang of it!

If you do your research and shop around a bit (and this may mean project managing bits yourself), you can get a LOT done for your budget. I'm in a cheaper area of the country but I've spent considerably less than you've got and I've rewired, sorted out the central heating with really nice radiators, replastered, redecorated and refloored my upstairs, boarded and insulated the loft (cheap!), put in external wall insulation round the whole house, replastered my knock-through living room/dining room and installed a log burner and really good engineered wood flooring, installed new oak doors front and back with bespoke joinery and sorted out my back garden. It's often cheaper to go at it steadily one job at a time, but it does draw out the inconvenience so it's a bit of a balancing act.

I still have to sort out my hall and kitchen, but those are involved in extension plans (my summer project!)

at your excitement about plumbing. It can be a bit confusing figuring out the order of projects at first, but you'll soon get the hang of it!

If you do your research and shop around a bit (and this may mean project managing bits yourself), you can get a LOT done for your budget. I'm in a cheaper area of the country but I've spent considerably less than you've got and I've rewired, sorted out the central heating with really nice radiators, replastered, redecorated and refloored my upstairs, boarded and insulated the loft (cheap!), put in external wall insulation round the whole house, replastered my knock-through living room/dining room and installed a log burner and really good engineered wood flooring, installed new oak doors front and back with bespoke joinery and sorted out my back garden. It's often cheaper to go at it steadily one job at a time, but it does draw out the inconvenience so it's a bit of a balancing act. I still have to sort out my hall and kitchen, but those are involved in extension plans (my summer project!).

I find it helpful to distinguish between jobs that create whole house chaos (wiring, central heating) and jobs where you can more or less contain the chaos to one room (log burner). External work will create mess and dust, but you can close the windows and limit this.

Yes, you can reinstate walls no problem (and quite cheaply if it doesn't need to be load bearing!). You might want to think, though, about whether you want to retain the versatility of being able to open up the space by, for example, installing sliding doors instead. Most of the time, you can take out at least some of the kitchen/dining wall as well if the building is properly supported - this is definitely the case in my house - but every property is different so this is a question for a structural engineer!

Since extension may be a few years off, I'd make a start on your downstairs, but I'd avoid installing anything too expensive flooring-wise for now if you can. Definitely get your log burner sorted out before you do any kind of painting or flooring - the chimney breast may need to be widened and then replastered and this creates a helluva mess. One that's really worth it, though!

Ooops, how did I manage to post that twice with two messages?!

Fireplaces/ log burner etc presumably should go in before any form of decoration and floor?

yes this should be done before you do any decoration or flooring as it can be a very messy job - when you put the fireplace in you may need some plaster work done around the opening as well.

shovetheholly thanks for being so encouraging! The plan is looking like this:

1. Electrics
2. Boiler and heating
3. Insulate and board loft
4. Sand down upstairs woodwork and banisters and repaint. Will likely pay someone for this as I know someone who is a genius with properly sanding and making good old woodwork that has been painted over too many times. Will try to at least watch him and learn so I can attempt to do the downstairs skirting boards myself at a later stage.
5. Get log burner installed in the front fireplace. Re plaster and chimney work as needed.
6. Restore front door including repairs, re painting and new stained glass.

See how much if any money we have left. See how the actual living arrangements are working out and what is annoying us most. Make a new plan.

Please everyone feel free to comment on this plan.

Thanks!

Another question: this might be for Liara or anyone who knows about keeping an old house 'breathing'

If one uses Eco insulation of some kind in the loft (sheeps wool/ hemp/ wood fibre/ whatever part of our reason for doing this will be to enable moisture to keep moving outwards and prevent condensation/ damp/ mould problems.

Bearing in mind breathability, what would you use for boarding the loft?

I'm concerned about this kind of situation (from www.heritage-house.org)

"Loft Insulation Causes Condensation and Rots your Roof Timbers!
This is another major problem which is starting to affect more homes, as the Government Word gets around, and our nasty insulation companies are promoting free insulation, paid for by the taxpayer. DO YOUR RESEARCH - check the claims the insulation companies make. Research their websites - look for the negatives, the problems - dont just read the "Thank You - our house is nice and warm now" letters that clients send the next day before the damage sets in.. It's all very simple. Trap heat into the house with loft insulation. The house gets warmer, and more moisture is absorbed into the air in the house. This warm moist air rises. It is not totally stopped just by a load of insulation - it eventually makes its way, loaded with moisture, into what is now a very cold loft space. Whoopee! All that nice warm, moist air then condenses all over the bottom of your roof tiles, and runs down the felting. If you've got that horrible black bitumen based felt - condensation just LOVES the stuff - it runs down, drips everywhere, and more importantly SOAKS the roof timbers themselves - so that especially in winter, you get mould, fungus, and rotting timbers. I often do surveys nowadays in which I find rotting and mouldy roof timbers as a direct result of loft insulation being installed. There is nothing wrong with loft insulation as a concept - BUT - the roof space needs to be well ventilated to take account of the increased humidity - airflow needs to be increased dramatically to stop condensation damaging the structural timbers. If you have very modern felt - the monarfil type, which is breathable, the problems will be less - but loft insulation tends to be sold into older homes, which by their very nature have older, bitumen based felt which can't breathe."

My reasons for worrying about this are that the previous three houses/ flats we've lived in have had horrendous damp and mould problems- to the extent that we lost 3 mattresses and a sofa to mould in one flat (1960s). We are absolutely convinced we have to go down the route described on the heritage house site to try and prevent damp problems. The last house we rented (1930s) had a very well insulated loft, and the landlords had to install a massive radiator up there to try and combat the condensation problems! Which surely defeats the object! We were paying to heat the insulated loft

Is damp in the loft a real worry in people's experience and what are the best ways to stay warm and more importantly DRY?

The key to avoiding damp problems is ventilation. My house does not have felt on the roof, so there is plenty of ventilation in the loft, but if I did have it I would probably install some decent mechanical ventilation there.

Same goes for the house. There are some very good heat recovery ventilation systems which allow you to keep the house adequately ventilated without undue loss of heat. Some of them are very energy efficient too.

But you are right to be concerned about this - the system is only as breathable as the least breathable part and if you have bitumen on the roof then that's not breathable at all! Same on the walls - it's no use putting some lovely breathable lime plaster if the outside is rendered with concrete.

But ventilation can avoid most issues.

Love a good renovation thread. We renovated our Edwardian house (deceased estate, empty for >1yr, lots of condemned bits) last summer. £30k was eaten up by new roof, new ceilings upstairs, rewire, new boiler and rads, removal of unsupported chimney breast, removal of wallpaper, skim throughout and paint, strip and varnish floorboards downstairs, new bathroom and temporary kitchen. Carpets are the absolute last thing to do.

We are installing a log burner later this year hopefully, the installer doesn't think it'll make much mess as he works similar to the chimney sweeping with sheets. Also hoping to borrow more money on the mortgage having increased value by about £60k now it's habitable, and that will go on the rear kitchen diner extension. I would have loved to do it all at once but the house would have easily eaten £100k.

Next jobs on the list are removal of porch and renovation of original door, reducing level of front garden as it's above the ventilation bricks (we dug a trench surrounding and filled with pea gravel as a temporary measure), casement window renovation, log burner and basic landscaping at the back.

Can't wait until we can actually spend money on pretty things. Good luck!

Congratulations on your house! We are in a similar situation in n London and took out an extra 40k on the mortgage to renovate our new 4 bed 1920's detached. However after complete re wire, re plumb ( mega flow system-all new pipes) removal of a huge internal chimney ( carved the house in two) new bathroom and new loo fitted under the stairs we don't have much change! We seriously under budgeted the cost of building work -a couple of quotes came in at 80k and we will run over our mortgage cash and into precious savings very soon. Fingers crossed there will be a working loo when we move in next week....
So from my experience I would sort electrics now if you think they are unsafe- maybe work out if the boiler will get you through another couple of years and leave it but plan for major upheaval when it gets replaced-no floorboard will be left unturned!
I can't say about the insulation as there is so much conflicting advice out there about period properties and a good boiler system will save you so much more money in the long run than loft insulation.
I had my beautiful Edwardian glazed front door dipped in my last house and it came back absolutely fine for £80. I was slightly worried about the glass but my carpenter just put a little putty round it and it was perfect.
Good luck and let us know how it all goes!

Scour gumtree for a stove... I bought our huge Franco Belge Savoy for £300 instead of £900 brand new. And it came with all the extras. Saved us a fortune and it's gorgeous.

Potap123 evils of plaster dust noted! Also fabulous front door links especially love the stained glass lady. We are hoping the original front door is rescuable with some tlc but it will need new stained glass.

otherstories I'm finding your list of things done rather encouraging too. Do share any more specific things you learned on the way... You are brave to take on a house with condemned parts!!

pixiegio gumtree for a stove what a great tip, I will start now

Grogsygreen thanks, will google mega flow system. All recommendations re plumbing and boilers would be useful, haven't started researching that yet.

Liara thanks will ok at heat recovery ventilation if we feel we need extra ventilation. Hard to know without living in it for a while. And how do you know if there's bitumen on the roof?

Mega flow plumbing looks good. I am a sucker for a system that claims to be better than all the others! Official call for plumbing wisdom of all types please? Boilers? (It's a 3 bed end of terrace and we hope it'll end up with a sizeable downstairs extension)

Oh and wrt plumbing, we do have 2 bathrooms, one upstairs and one shower room in the existing utility room/ shower room extension. The bathroom and shower room are relatively far apart. Was hoping a combi would do it. Will obviously seek advice of a plumber but knowing what people's experiences are first would be helpful.

We couldn't afford a finished home this big in Leyton but fortunately had cash left from the previous sale and somewhere else to live for a few months! I would've loved (naively) to do more myself but DS was 7mo when we got the keys and we had 3mths until I went back to work so I wasnt around to see much of the day to day stuff. My advice would be make sure you completely trust the tradesmen and if you aren't there find someone who will double as a project manager, don't leave decisions to the last minute even if you think they're small, similarly don't order big things too early. If you can, don't live through the messy stuff, the dust generated is incredible, for the first 3 weeks it was unbearable and everyone needed dust masks.

We have a vaillant combi which is great and I am lead to believe will cope with 2 bathrooms (a loft conversion is many years away!). Make sure the installer is certified for the boiler you choose for the extended warranty. Id definitely recommend a portable digital thermostat, we leave it in DS room overnight so his room is the perfect temp (means the rest of the house is freezing at 7am though!).