We've stopped our extension mid-build - nightmare neighbours

[JayGatsby]

Has anyone had any experience of this?

When we bought our house last year, the survey failed to pick up that the dilapidated glass-and-wood kitchen utility was in fact leaking and falling down. It had to be replaced as water dripped down the walls when it rained, there was no damp course and the timbers were completely rotten. And we couldn't open the back door because it was so swollen.

We found a builder, got architect plans drawn up, and got planning permission for a replacement utility made of brick and a pitched roof.

Which is when we discovered our adjoining neighbours were violently against the plans because it involved our flat roof becoming a pitched roof, which they feared would cast a shadow across a portion of their flat roof.

We spent hours and hours talking to them. We reduced the pitch to the most gentle physically possible (15%), offered to re-felt their roof at the same time etc etc. Eventually they agreed to sign a party wall agreement to let us build up their party wall.

Our build started three weeks ago but on Thursday when the roof rafters went up, our neighbour started taking photos and telling our builder it was going higher than she'd agreed. The apex is in fact one-and-a-half brick courses higher than the graphics on the architect drawings implied.

Today she sent messages saying we'd breached the party wall agreement and our agreement and she would be getting a party wall surveyor involved (with us picking up the cost). Eventually the builder downed tools and says he'll be back when the situation's resolved.

It's a nightmare. We've spoken to the planning dept and just spent another hour with her. We don't seem to have any legal protection. Our options appear to be:
a) pull it down and replace with a crappy flat roof
b) keep building and face months/years of defending ourselves against legal action, which seems v miserable and expensive.

No one can suggest any better solution to this. The builder looked at installing a low 6'2" door to lower the roof profile, but we have family members who are 6'2".

We're at our wits' end. I'm sure no one's managed to get this far . I can't believe our modest, tiny and unfurnished utility room/loo is causing so much grief.

It's below 10cm. I would carry on and ignore her. A brick and a half difference in height is nothing.

You can't have a small door leading out of the back. That's a fire hazard. Your neighbour is being a NIMBY over something that is negligible. If anything they should be getting their roof pitched at the same time as yours to save themselves costs when they will need to redo theirs in the long run.

If she continues let her send you legal notices and waste her money on a solicitor. You will probably find no one will take her case on as an order to tear down is issued by planning not from breach on contract. Worst case you pay damages.

Been there and dealt with people who have no clue regarding how to build or why things are designed the way they are. I changed a flat roof to a sloping roof on a house and they tried to go after me for damages. Told them to speak to planning. Planning told them to go away.

Maybe contact your home insurers and see if they have a legal helpline? But really the architect and the builder should be sorting this out between them, surely? Maybe worth finding out what professional bodies they belong to and getting advice from their websites. Royal Town Planning Institute also has a website and advice site at planningaid.co.uk

I would be tempted to keep going - you have to have a roof going into winter. You must have paid for most of it by now anyway. Planning departments are very loathe to make people take things down these days - most punitive action is to make you apply retrospectively for planning permission for what you've done, so maybe more fees at worst.

How likely is it that the neighbour has the money for legal action? Up front all the costs would be theirs.

The real Jay Gatsby (DW accidentally posting on my account): neighbour convinced we swore there would be two clear brick courses between apex and bottom of window corbels. We didn't - and no paper/ e-trail to back herself up. The elevation shows, diagrammatically, ONE clear brick course; it looks as if, with best will in the world, apex might be about 3.5cm higher than drawing indicates. This is almost exactly 1% variance in total height of building - pretty amazing achievement. And city council planner says it's 'Within Tolerance' and they don't regard the variance as an issue, actually.
As for 6'2" doors - while they're not legally enforceable on character cottages, on new building they would not get past Building Control. While one of the BC inspectors is a hobbity (for a man) 5'4", the other is 6'4" and likely to brain himself while looking the place over (also, my DSF and DFIL and best mate are all 6'2"; another mate is also 6'4").
Flat roofs are rarely flat - they should have a slight pitch and should drain, as hers always appears to have done. Incidentally, I was told by our builder today, the chippings/tiny gravel on a felt roof are there to keep the roof damp - it's the constant process of dampening and drying out and shrinking and contracting that causes stress to felt roofs, causing them to crack and leak. I'm not even sure moss is a bad thing. But I'm not an export on roof flora.

I bet yer bottom dollar shes just jealous that your having a new extension and shes not!.

If i was faced with this and had the council planners backing me up, well saying its not a problem and do get that in writing if you will in case some other planing officer says different, then I'd tell her to get lost in the nicest possible way of course;)

Your ideas re flat roofs are about right. Keeping the direct sunlight of them isn't a bad thing at all!.

If the planners are ok with it - just continue. They had the chance to put their point of view across during the planning stages.

Did you follow up with the surveyor about why they didn't spot it in the survey? You might be able to recoup some money by claiming against their insurance.

Oh and don't tell them to go to planning until you have finished the job.

Surely if the planning department have agreed it, then it's a done deal. She might not like it but, frankly, tough.

we've been told by planning that they don't regard such a small increase as a breach of planning permission

I'm not surprised, 5cm!! Just get on with it, you have permission, you are in accordance with your plans (within acceptable tolerances), why are you stopping just because your neighbour is being ridiculous? She will get over it once it's done, the disturbance is over and she can see an attractive, finished article. Dragging it out will only lead to more tears, tantrums and expense. Just get it finished and avoid the neighbour like the plague until it's done.

Oh thanks, guys! Thanks so much for all the advice. We're feeling a bit more confident about continuing now the planning department have given us their support. I'm not sure there's anything we could say or do that would win over our neighbour.

Right now I never want to do a building project ever again!

Your going to be a brick plus mortar bed height either way of a fixed point so its hardly worth worrying about it!.

Have you ever noticed that having the builders in is a bit like an affair or relationship?All anticipation high hopes and expectations that your fantastic new extension is to be built. But after the honeymoon period when they don't turn up for days on end, and then they cock bits of it up and then you tell them to sod off and then the solicitors letters and then large sums in compensation or payments change hands;?.

Or perhaps like a divorce!.

Anyway enjoy it and don't for get to ask miserable-Minnie next door to come to the house warming party!.

I am in a similar situation with party wall issues after paying for 2 surveyors-who are fecken useless. My neighbours are trying to extort money out of us and threatening to tear things down. I am so stressed I have the permanent shakes.

Happily, Justaboy, our builder is a consummate professional, has lived up to expectations and has done a great job - plus is acting as diplomat, counsellor and brilliant craftsman. Miserable Minnie on the other side of the wall is going to be pointedly left out of big neighbourhood very noisy all-night knees-up!

Superram - have you tried asking the planning department at the council for advice? Ours was a star.

Err, you really have to be careful with measurements. 5cm over plan is a lot. 5mm - yep, no problems, insignificant. 5cm - No!

I would be wary of accepting people just saying 'Its OK'. esp. if its not in writing.

As far as your neighbour, would you be happy if she moved her fence 5cm, 10cm, 15cm, 20cm, 30cm into your garden? Its only 5cm?

Planning dept is a bit moot here. You have had the plans accepted by planning. Your neighbour has agreed to them. Now you have broken the agreed plan.

I don't think your fence analogy is a good one - the OP's replacement extension is not encroaching on the neighbour's property. It is marginally higher than was anticipated, on the OP's land. 5cm is really nothing - 5 inches would be.

No, its a party wall.

As I understand it, the new extension will be built against the neighbours wall.

thing is, planning drawings are not accurate and the brickwork grid is for 'decoration' rather than measurement.

and 5 cm of 2 meters is a tiny percentage. but if you could the 'within tolerance' in writing tgat would certainly help. even if you send an email to the planning officer you spoke to 'as discussed on date bla bla bla...'

5cm from 2m is 2.5%.

0.01% is tiny.

2.5% is not.

JayGatsby If you've found a good builder hang onto him. Never mind the other half a decent builder is worth his weight in platinum;)

hereandtherex Tolerance?. Where are you measuring this from and where is the reference datum?. Ground level , concrete path perhaps , damp proof course level, ground level?.

Also a brick course with mortar bed is typically 75 mm in height so theer is a variation in all of this. If the building inspector has said Yay then all's OK in my book.

After all who is she going the get to argue this anyway if it does kick off?.

Its not the building inspector's or planner's wall that it is being built against.

A 5cm - and I think its actually a lot more - is quite an error in a small, single story extension.

Ultimately though, planning enforcement cases are assessed on whether or not it is 'expedient to pursue'. Highly doubt that trying to enforce a 5cm breach would be considered so, in the current climate of cuts to local authorities etc. A friend's neighbours built a whole flipping shanty development in their back garden and were not pursued, even though the planning enforcement wanted to, so they are hardly going to make you pull your extension down because you have a drama queen for a neighbour. Good luck dealing with her for the next while by the way!

hereandtherex are you 'miserable minnie'?

5cm for building height is very small difference. Have you ever done a build before? There are a lot of variables down to the dimensions of the brick, the buildout of the foundation and how the mortar sits between the bricks. 5cm on a height of 2m is nothing.

Is this going up against her wall, but you don't need to access her garden/property to complete it? I would just plough on I think, you have been reasonable and 5cm is neither here nor there.

Or think about getting a new patio too