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Downsizing and Buy to Let mortgage

18 replies

nolongerwaitingfornumber2 · 01/10/2015 16:27

Hi. Does anyone know whether the following is something our bank would consider? We have a mortgage of about £325k on a house worth £475k. We bought it thinking it would be our forever home but after living here for a few years we have decided the house and garden are just too big and hard to maintain.

After a week at the coast recently which our DC adored we have decided that we would quite like to downsize and buy a 3 bed house in our city for around £250k and then use the equity in our home and a buy to let mortgage to get a place near the sea as a holiday let and for family weekends.

Having researched we would need £200k to £250k budget for the holiday let. Therefore at the top end we'd need to have £500k for the two properties made up of £150k deposit (split however necessary) and £350k in mortgages again split as needed for the best deal.

How would a lender look at this proposal? Would rental potential come into affordability criteria or would it be straight up income based? We can afford the repayments on a £350k mortgage even if interest rates do rise so that's not the concern; it's more how lenders would view having two properties albeit the main residence being smaller and the other with income potential. We're talking to our bank next week but don't want to have egg on our faces if this is a ridiculous proposal.

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CityDweller · 01/10/2015 17:32

It depends a lot on the lender, but many won't take rental income into account until you have a history of renting it out. That being said, we recently got a mortgage to buy a house while also keeping our original residential mortgage on our flat, which we will rent out. The lender asked for letters from letting agents to demonstrate how much the flat would rent out for and I think, therefore, did not include our existing mortgage payment in their affordability calculation. Affordability is the thing that matters most since the new regulations came in.

My best advice would be to go through a broker. I would do this before going to your bank. I can recommend the very, very good person who helped us get our mortgage sorted if you pm me. He was brilliant at anticipating any 'issues' and knew exactly which lenders to approach, in terms of who would be favourable to our situation.

nolongerwaitingfornumber2 · 01/10/2015 19:19

Thanks city dweller. Will send you a pm.

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lalalonglegs · 01/10/2015 19:34

Don't get sucked in by headline rental rates on holiday let's : they are fiendishly expensive to run if you can't manage them yourself. Be realistic about how often you will use the property yourself especially as your children get older and want to do their own thing.

nolongerwaitingfornumber2 · 01/10/2015 20:14

Thanks lala. That's good to know.

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specialsubject · 01/10/2015 20:15

downsize and then rent a holiday home when you need it. The figure I was given was 20 weeks a year and you are doing well, and there is shed loads of competition.

Needmoresleep · 01/10/2015 21:02

It is possible to make money from holiday lets, however:

  1. You are essentially running a hotel service. People expect things to be hotel clean, nice crisp linen, things to be working etc. Complaints about no lids for pans, or no egg cups. Wifi needs to be working. Things need to be fixed within the day. Every guest will fiddle with the boiler. Its a lot of work, which you either need to organise or have an agency do.
  1. Seasons in many holiday resorts are short. Mainly the six school holiday weeks. Probably when you would want to use the place.
  1. Furnishing to a standard at least as good as guests will have at home is expensive (though the shopping in TKMaxx is fun!) You need to pay bills so its much better to have a modern well insulated property. You pay Council tax, which can be a lot.
  1. I think you do better in places near major centres of population. Perhaps a University, so you can let to students out of season. Or IT specialists doing a four month project.
  1. The tax is complicated. Though some CGT advantages.

In short its hard work, and best treated as a way to recoup costs rather than make a profit.

I dont think you can get btl mortgages, though presumaby you might be able to access commercial loans.

nolongerwaitingfornumber2 · 01/10/2015 21:15

Thanks Need and Special. It is more for us than to make money but we thought that might be a useful sideline esp for the next few years while DC aren't at school. Good to have input into the reality of holiday rentals though.

Wouldn't buying the property by the sea be a good investment even if we didn't run it as a business but as a second home anyway as property prices are still on the up? Or would we be better just downsizing and having a much smaller mortgage? Where would we best invest the surplus we'd save if not in property?

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lalalonglegs · 01/10/2015 21:30

I'd downsize because it doesn't sound as if you are enjoying your forever home very much and being mortgage-free (or only having a very small one) is very liberating. I would put the seaside home idea on the back burner for at least a year but look into going down there regularly by booking a holiday let or something through air bnb - you can take stock again next autumn or beyond and see how much you have actually visited Wink.

specialsubject · 01/10/2015 21:45

what to do with the 'spare' money is very difficult with interest rates as they are. I was doing some sums on another thread and with a few hours spent setting up a network of current accounts, a couple can get about 3% before tax on £100k. That is about ahead of inflation.

after that it is investment, with obvious risk.

nolongerwaitingfornumber2 · 01/10/2015 22:12

lala, I think you have hit the nail on the head and talk a lot of sense. We were seduced pre kids by the house. It had amazing original features and a huge garden but everywhere we look now all we see is money that needs spending just to maintain it (new sash windows for instance) and a garden which we aren't enjoying because it is too big for us to keep on top of. We have two children now and when DH has time off we want to enjoy it as a family. We are lucky to live in a city where £250k still gets a nice 3 bed near good schools.

I guess we can use the money we'd save each month to overpay the mortgage and enjoy family time while interest rates are low as Special says. Get mortgage free within a few years and then look at what we want.

Thank you for helping me think through our situation!

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hereandtherex · 02/10/2015 09:39

Never buy a holiday let with finance/mortgage.

It is very hard to make a go with a UK holiday home. Our summers are too short, too cold and too rainy. Spain is always cheaper; Turkey more so.

80% of people just want some sunshine and a pool.
I see UK based holiday lets trying to charge the same money as an all inc. 2 weeks somewhere hot + nice. Hats all-inc too - booze and food.

When you factor in meals, the odd indoor activity for those rainy days, cost of trips etc etc you realise how shit a staycation can be.

Needmoresleep · 02/10/2015 11:12

Not quite.

Summer rentals for us are a steady stream of families booking for a week, requesting high chair and cot. There is still a place for bucket and spade for people who can't face taking small children through airports, delays etc. That said, we get plenty of comments afterwards appreciating the good washer/dryer and the pile of children's DVDs.

However we are lucky that the flat is not only near a good beach but also somewhere with a boyant economy with good transport links and a University, with some lovely walking country nearby. We have regular bookings from some grandparents who come down at half terms to help with child care, quite a lot of couples from May through to mid-October takng a week's break, parents installing their children in a nearby language school, house-hunters looking to buy, people on extended business trips looking for a serviced appartment etc. We even had some Bulgarians usethe flat as a base for a November walking holiday. I felt a bit sorry for them.

But even with all of this we would be better off simply letting it to local young professionals. Far less work and much cheaper. Though holiday-let agency fees are high, I begrudge them far less than normal agency fees. Holiday lets are really hard work.

The flat is also the right size, two bed two bath and nothing pretentious, and in a good location for both beach and town. Really nice properties in the area can be very expensive but without much rental premium. There is a danger of stag/hen bookings with larger properties.

It suits us, as my mother is near-by and long-term ill, and it suits us to have a base so visits can also be mini-breaks for us. Good transport means that our older teenagers can use it. And it is great that we come some way to covering our costs.

There is no guarantee that something by the sea will rise in value. In fact seaside towns have generally suffered with the switch to foreign holidays, and then by having this surplus accomodation used by benefit claimants. The summer season is very short and so there is often a lot of winter unemployment. In rural areas, second home purchases tend to depend strongly on confidence and disposable income, so the market is very volatile. If interest rates go up prices could well fall sharply. We have made capital gains, but these relate to the strength of the local economy, and these reflect rises in other economically sucessful Southern towns, not just those by the sea.

In short it can be worthwhile, but only if part of the return is your own ennjoyment of the property and if you have done your market research and costings carefully.

Needmoresleep · 02/10/2015 11:15

I would also add that I like the fact that the property is being fully used, rather than be just another empty second home. Visitors contribute to the local economy and I like the idea that toddlers are getting their first bucket and spade holiday.

FreckledLeopard · 02/10/2015 11:21

Holiday rentals are difficult and take up an inordinate amount of time when managing them. I have a rental cottage I let out in France. Even with occupancy at around 36 weeks per year, it barely makes any money.

Things to think about - who will you employ to clean/make beds/see guests in/attend to any maintenance and be on call in case of any issues? In peak season, I pay out in excess of 900 euros per month on people managing my cottage (gardening, laundry, cleaning, fixing things, reassuring nervous guests, arranging replacement boilers, attending to ants' nests). Further, you have to have a lot of time managing booking queries, sending out arrival information, taking deposits, chasing for balance.

Frankly I'd just downsize and maybe invest in a buy-to-let if you really wanted to, with professional, long-term tenants and far lower costs as a result.

hereandtherex · 02/10/2015 12:12

Needmoresleep. I guess you mean Brighton or B'mouth. I cannot think of any other seaside towns which have anything resembling a 'vibrant' economy.

I come from Yorkshire coast area. Mum runs her own holiday let. She built the house on a large bit of land we owned. Its a big house- sleeps 10 - without them being packed 5 to a run. Parking for 3 cars, in a place where there is limited parking. She prices the place way too low, but she feels uncomfortable about asking for more. It keeps her busy - which is good - but it does take up 7 hours every Saturday. She can only go on holiday off season, which she's OK with.

The amount of money she makes -and bear in mind there is no finance on the place - is pitiful. If she sold, she'd be better putting the money - even with todays crap rates.

Personally, I think holiday homes are a cruse. For the local population, who get 'cleansed', and for the person buying, who get took to the cleaners. Maybe there is Karma?

The UK population are nuts about property. This cycle will end of bankrupting are very large portion.

I track the local area and most of the holiday homes bought in the last 10-15 years are coming up for sale, mainly for the reasons listed above. The odd sale has gone through at huge discounts - losing 50k-100k over 10 years. Ouch. And thats after bleeding cash for 1o years.

nolongerwaitingfornumber2 · 02/10/2015 13:24

Thanks for your views everyone. We are only thinking about it because our DC are little and we love holidaying in this country. Nice places always seem to be booked up throughout the season too.

Appreciate that it's a lot of work though and profits might be hard to come by.

Needmore, your set up sounds like what we were thinking of. Do you own outright or have a mortgage if you don't mind me asking?

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Needmoresleep · 02/10/2015 19:06

Here you got it in one (or two). The town with the better beach (and football team, the thing that sold regular visits to DH though he now can't get tickets. If only we had got season tickets a couple of seasons ago.)

In laws are in North York and we did wonder whether it made sense to do the same up there but one trip was sufficient to for us to work out that there was no way it would be anything other than an on-going expense. Instead if my in laws had a health crisis and we needed to spend time there we have worked out we are much better off renting someone else's holiday home off-season. Lots of availability and low rates.

We mortgaged against an existing buy to let. It was all a bit accidental. Day trips to visit my mum were getting me down with 5 hours driving on top of the hospital, dentist or whatever, plus I wanted to visit her as well as rush round doing chores. Then we discovered that we could holiday let. I think we could break even and cover interest, ignoring the initial fitting out costs, if we winter-let to students (big demand) and summer-let to holiday makers. But then we could not use it.

And that's the problem. Peak weeks are quite limited and if you have young children that's when you want to use it.

That said it works for us. I had to go down earlier in the week but stayed because the weather was glorious, so saw more of my mum and did a lot of walking. I plan to go for Dorset Arts fortnight and use this to explore the wider area. Kids can go down with friends after exams and we get the agency cleaners to clean after them. So for us its more that others are helping cover the cost of the property. Particularly those who use it like we do, to visit family, and so give us about 5 bookings a year.

But we were lucky and I don't think there are many places with a suffiently long season and varied customer base.

Nolonger do PM me if you were thinking of a similar South Coast town. I would be happy to give details of the Agency etc.

nolongerwaitingfornumber2 · 02/10/2015 21:22

Thanks Needmore, I will PM you.

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