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Underpinning

9 replies

BingBong36 · 13/05/2015 16:44

Hi,

How would a surveyor know that a house has been underpinned if there is no record at the council?

Are there any telltale signs or is it impossible unless you dug down?

Thank you

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suzyrut · 14/05/2015 09:29

I've recently had a surveyors report that showed there was underpinning on a house we're currently in the process of buying. He said the first thing he noticed was that the stairs were very slightly at an angle, I hadn't noticed this at all in our viewings! I think there can be signs on the brickwork and walls of repairs to cracking etc. as his report also mentioned about repairs to previous cracking. The underpinning on ours was done in the mid 1930s so it must be pretty obvious to the trained eye.

Are you worried about a house you are selling or buying?

BingBong36 · 14/05/2015 11:25

Well, the house we are in the neighbours mentioned that years and years ago it was underpinned, they think due to a collapsed drain.

I called the council and they have no record.

There are a few hairline cracks in the brick work but a lot of Victorian houses have that.

We have been living there since 2007 and thinking of moving, I am worried about potential buyers, do I need to disclose this even tho we are not sure?

Or not say anything as the house is fine and everyone would be none the wise?

Thanks

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BingBong36 · 14/05/2015 11:26

Just to add, when we got our house the survey said 'historic' movement and nothing to worry about, but we had the middle survey done.

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suzyrut · 14/05/2015 12:12

I am not sure on the legalities of whether you need to disclose it, just looked at the home information form that our seller had to fill out (they had the underpinning) and the form only asks whether any warranties exist for underpinning but I guess the answer to that would just be a "no". Also the underpinning came up in the local search too so the fact that you've checked with the council and nothing is registered means it shouldn't come up through that means.

Logically you don't know that it has been underpinned, do you think it's possible that your neighbours could be mistaken and it was just some work not actual underpinning? If it's not registered with the council and it didn't come up in your survey then I would say they could well be.

Worst case scenario though and it is underpinned then people would still buy your house I'm sure (we might be unusual but we weren't put off by it at all) though if it is found out that it is then it could slow the process down for surveyors reports.

I know no one has money to throw around when they're buying/selling but could you have a surveyor come round and take a look specifically to see if he can see underpinning? Don't know how much you'd pay but it shouldn't be more than a couple of £100, might save you a lot of stress in the long run?

I really do feel your pain as I know we have some of this to come if/when we sell (that is if we ever finally get to completion!)

BingBong36 · 14/05/2015 13:16

Thanks, I had thought of getting a structural engineer around but it's a bit expense.

It wouldn't put me off a property either as surely it makes it more secure, but I suppose it is just the lack of paperwork and warranties that may put future buyers off?!

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suzyrut · 15/05/2015 11:37

Hiya.

We have no warranties for ours and apparently most work is only guaranteed/insured for 10 years (according to my solicitor) anyway so if it was done a long time ago then there wouldn't be that aspect. But yes I think if it had been underpinned and it wasn't registered with the council and you don't have any paperwork I think then the buyers mortgage company can insist on a survey and then from there maybe some work to be done if they feel that it needs it.

I know it was 7/8 years ago but just another thought, do you have the original survey or do you know who did it? It might be a long shot but could you ask them whether if they checked (or would normally if you have that kind of survey) for subsidence? If they say it would have come up on the report then happy days!

Millymollymama · 15/05/2015 13:38

My DH is a structural engineer so I will pass on what I know.

Underpinning in the 1930's will not be of interest to anyone - it is too long ago and no-one really knows what was done. A surveyor should not suggest a slightly out of alignment staircase is anything to do with something that happened 80 years ago! Staircases are internal usually and it woldhave to have been a pretty major problem to move a staircase. What has happened to it in the intervening years might be of interest. Was it built properly?

Subsidence is what happens when moisture is taken out of the ground. Usually by a tree(s) that is too large and the roots are looking for moisture. It can be that a house has very shallow foundations and is not built to withstand changes in moisture levels in the soil. It is more likely there is subsidence on clay soils because they shrink rapidly which means the foundations fail under the ground and the house collapses downwards. Where there is too much moisture in the soil - this damage is called heave. As you can imagine it pushes the walls out of alignment and again is due to insufficient foundations for the conditions. This can also be a clay soil problem and instead of the soil being dessicated, (as in subsidence) it is saturated so it moves upwards, pushing the walls outwards. A leaking drain could cause this, but removal of loads of trees can have the same effect in that too much water is in the soil.

Usually subsidence work is guaranteed for 10 years. If the surveryor says there is historic movement, it means the house is no longer moving, but it has in the past. There may be signs of repaired cracks, inside and out. If a staircase has moved it is likely to have been a very serious case. I will check with DH to see what remedies might have been used inthe 1930's. Today it is very deep concrete foundations, to put it simply. My DH has actually advised that a house be demolished and rebuilt due to heave. You could see from the lounge into the bedroom above because the walls had moved outwards so much. The staircase was no longer adjacent to the wall - it had split away!

A surveyor cannot see underpinning! It is under the ground!!! All you will see from above is repaired cracks. If the house has been re-rendered, you may not even see that! If a house has been underpinned, it is usually a good bet because the problem has been dealt with. Surveyors can be very cautious about cracks and are not qualified to say exactly what is happening or what the remedy should be. As you rightly say that is a structural engineer but you don't want to pay for one if you do not need one.

I do not think you need to mention hearsay of the neighbours. My DH is selling a relative's house that he underpinned 24 years ago. As far as I am aware, the Council did not need to know because it is repair, not a new building. These are insurance jobs normally but building regs could be involved. Repairs are normally specialist solutions tailored to the house and soil. If new drains are involved or there are other building regulation requirements, then the council should know about it. With our relative's house, he gave all the information to the buyer - no-one else did. I could be wrong with more recent subsidence work.

All decent surveyors would notice cracks or repairs to cracks, so having access to a previous survey might help. Subsidence repairs will also have drawings so someone shold have these. However, I would leave it up to the buyer's surveyor. You can only report what you know and it is up to them to check for themselves but usually small cracks in an older house are nothing to worry about. If you can see significant and obvious cracking and windows/doors out of alignment, then that is more concerning. Hope this helps .

BingBong36 · 16/05/2015 07:27

Millollymamna:

Wow thank you for taking the time to respond, it was an interesting and informative read!

We do have a few hairline cracks in the brick but they were here when we moved in and haven't changed as I've obsessively been watching them!

There would be no previous survey as the previous owners got this house on auction.

So if it was underpinned and a surveyor will not see that as it's underground there is no need for me to bring it up as it may not have been true anyway?!

Thanks again

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BingBong36 · 16/05/2015 07:32

Suzyrut: thanks for your response, I re read out survey from 2007 it's a few pages long and as mentioned it just said 'historic non progressing cracks' . I got the 'middle survey' so not the homebuyers and not.

I've looked all around the property and to the untrained eye there is nothing to suggest anything, but then is have no idea what I am looking at!

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