Vendors told us A but are now saying B - what do think?

[BauerTime]

Just had responses to a list of queries we raised through our solicitors from our Vendors. One of the points was about building regs approval for removal of chimney stacks and chimney from the roof.

When we viewed the house the vendor 100% told me that they had had this done as I remember him saying 'we left the one in the front room as a feature'. In the response to the queries he is now saying that this work was completed prior to them taking ownership of the property and so do not have any documents to confirm approval was sought.

Im not sure what to make of this. One the one hand they have lied at some point and we don't know whether they did the work or not. Im inclined to think that they did as they had the roof completely re-tiled a few years ago (they have given us the paperwork for this) which im sure he said was done when they removed the chimney.

But on the other hand surely the biggest risk of removing the chimney stacks is that the remaining chimney will not be supported properly? and this isn't an issue as the chimney is gone. So does it really matter?

Anyway I suppose this is a WWYD? Do I challenge this through my solicitor? Should we just check the work once we've moved in? What happens if I say 'but you told us....' and they just say 'no I didnt'?

Have you had a survey? A structural one? This would bring up any actual problems. And surely your solicitor should sort this out. That's what we pay them for.

This came up on a survey we had when we were selling our house. The surveyor noted that the chimney breast had been removed in the kitchen and queried whether the work had been done properly to support the chimney breast above. He wouldn't sign off on the mortgage amount until it had been looked into.

We hadn't removed the chimney breast, hadn't even noted one had been there. Got a quote for doing the supporting work which was about 1k and knocked it off the price of the house. The mortgage company retained 1k of the buyers mortgage until she had it done.

Thanks. We had a homebuyers report and it only noted that they had been removed. From the roof aspect there doesn't seem to be an issue.

There wont be any mortgage issues or issues around supporting the chimney above as there isn't one. Im not sure whether there are any other structural implications if removing the chimney stacks?

Im planning on getting on to my solicitor about this tomorrow but obviously she isn't aware yet that what they have told her contradicts what they told us initially. Im just trying to sound it out to determine what the issue actually is here. Is it just a legal one around permission or could the structural integrity be compromised?

Can you or your solicitor ask the council? I'd have thought the council would have records of when the work was done (assuming they were properly informed...)

If the council have no records then you know no approval was sought. It doesn't help you re knowing who did the work but either way, it means you know there is a risk and need your surveyor to look very carefully at these areas, and if necessary adjust price as Boys said.

If the council have records then that means there was approval and will also show you when the work was done.

Regarding risk, has the chimney breast gone as well as the chimney stack? If so then then I think there is some risk even if the chimney stack has completely gone, because the chimney breast will have performed a role in supporting the ceiling joists/roof timbers (as well as just supporting the chimney) and you need to know that was replaced with another support. However if the chimney breast is still there but chimney stack has gone, it doesn't seem like there could be much risk... but you could call the surveyor and ask, to be sure.

mini nope its all gone except the chimney breast in the front living room. It would have originally been in both downstairs rooms, both of the bedrooms about and then up into the loft space - all gone.

Its just occurred to me that there must have been some work also carried out next door, as it was a shared chimney.

As minipie says, check with the council. It might actually be publicly on their planning portal website - we're buying a house and I found all the building regulation approvals listed on there (wandsworth).

Otherwise, your solicitor can enquire whether they have the building regulations documents and party wall consent that they should have got when they bought the house, if the work was done by the previous owner. This worked for us when we got the standard 'didn't do the work, therefore we don't need to provide documents' answer which the property information form encourages.

yes there should at the least have been a party wall agreement with the next door house - so ask the neighbours!

Right ive been on the council website but the planning stuff doesn't go back far enough in time to before the vendors bought the house so either they didn't get the work done and there are potentially paper approvals somewhere (I assume?) or they did the work but didn't get any approval.

Im hoping my solicitor can dig deeper for us on this but if we have to go down the route of making the vendors get retrospective planning permission then im guessing that will be a right old ball ache?

Do you mean just go round and ask the neighbours? Im not sure ive got the front to do that!

Your solicitor should be able to deal with this for you - it might be an option for the vendors to take out an indemnity policy rather than get retrospective planning.

I seem to recall that after a period of time (maybe 10 years) that you can"t actually get retrospective planning anyway?

Like I say, get your solicitor to check - my experience of similar was a while ago and so my limited knowledge is a bit rusty!

You don't need building regs approval for the removal of a chimney stack, if you are removing the stack to below the roofline and then tiling the roof over where the stack was, then it is fine. I know this because we had our chimney removed today and I checked with the planning department a week ago and had an email stating this. You only need reg approval if you re-tile more than 25% of your roof. So if your vendor only had the stack removed it isn't a problem.

Think the works would come under Building Regulations, so under Building Control Dept - not Planning Department.

Building Control check plans and the work to ensure it is done safely and correctly. Planning don't get involved with that side of things.

As far as I'm aware, Building Control records are not publicly available and would not appear on-line. Certainly not on the Planning portal.

That may be why you won't find details. Your solicitor needs to approach Building Control Department directly.

By the way, the chimney stack doesn't support anything, it is the top of the chimney over the roofline. Do you mean the chimney breast?

Can I just reiterate, Planning and Building Regulations are completely different things and Council departments with different rules regulations and consents.

If the Planning Department have told you that planning permission is not required for the work being done that does not mean you don't have to check with the Building Control Department separately.

There is still a very real possibility you will need Building Regulations Consent which ensures the work done is structurally safe.

Sometimes you need planning permission and building regulation consent, sometimes just planning sometimes just building and sometimes (if you're really, really lucky) neither.

I guess it is your word against theirs WRT what they said (or didn't!)

Can you ask to go round and look in the loft to see if the chimney breast is still there? The only issue would be if there is still a chimney breast in the loft and/or on the roof that is unsupported underneath. I think that is the case anyway.

caco and fried. I believe the whole lot is gone from the ground floor right up to the chimney on the roof, which the exception of the breast in the front reception room.

Can I just clarify then, that to remove they need building regs permission rather than planning permission and that the council should have record of this if it was sought and given, regardless of who did it? (I.e. current vendors or previous owners).

My main concern is that they are now saying they didn't do it, when they told me that they did. Makes me feel we need to be cautious.

I will get my solicitor on to it tomorrow because I don't really care who had them removed but I do care that it was done properly IYSWIM.

I worked in a different department and a good a few years ago now, so no idea what the regulations are these days. However, I seem to remember that at that time Building Regulation Consent was not usually required if removing the chimney stack and a non-loading bearing chimney breast.

If any part of the chimney breast to be removed was load-bearing however, then permission would have to be obtained.

I suggest that if you are particularly worried, that you ring your Building Control Department yourself, give them the details and ask the question.

ie would the work have required permission and if so, was it obtained?

If you are estill worried, get an structural engineer to cast their eye over it.

Thanks So much fried.

I've spoken to the local planning office who confirmed that it would have needed building control and if it has ever been sought they will be able to find the documentation. If not then it would require a site visit to check and a certificate can be issued if all is well.

I've spoken to my solicitor too who is going to go back to the vendors solicitors in the first instance to clarify whether or not they did the work. If they say no then we can ask the planning office to look in the archive for it. If it was done and signed off previously then great, if there is no record of it ever then I guess we will have to get it done ourselves.

Any idea of how much that would cost anyone?

The vendors will need to provide you with an indemnity policy. They want to sell, they need to prove things were done correctly or indemnify you if they can't prove they were. This is the case whether they had the work done or it was done before they bought the house.

They may turn round and refuse to take out the indemnity in which case it's up to you whether to call their bluff and threaten to walk away or pay for it yourselves. Or you could take the view that you are not bothered and leave things as they are.

I'm not really bothered about the paperwork or an indemnity, as that only indemnified you against legal implications. My real concern is that it's been done safely and hasn't structurally compromised the building. And I guess without the appropriate consent we cannot be sure that it was.

Get a structural engineer in to check it out. Will give you peace of mind.

I wouldn't worry that the vendors appeared to be lying - they probably just said the first thing that came into their heads and are as muddled as most people regarding building regulations/planning etc. We bought a house that had had the ground and first floor chimney breasts removed but the remainder was still there in the roof. Just had to make sure that had been done properly i.e. supported above the bedroom ceiling. If it has all been taken out then there is probably nothing to worry about.