Advice needed re neighbour's plans to build a rear extension

[bodgerthebadger]

Hi. I'd really appreciate some advice here as to my options. Our new neighbours have moved in and have just informed us that they are planning major building works. Okay, not ideal as they say that the works will go on all summer and I have a newborn and toddler so I'm thinking that naps will go out the window then as well as privacy in our garden. The older owners had previously carried out building works for a few months and the noise, dust that carried over to our windows and lack of privacy in the garden (with builders overlooking us) was a irritating but something we had to put up with.

Now, I get that whilst the building works all summer will be irritating for us, it's not unreasonable for them to want to renovate their property. However, what we are concerned about is that they are planning to fully extend their rear kitchen so that it extends more than 3m beyond our kitchen (our houses are set out the same). The issue we have with this is that (a) we partially lose both view and light as the extension will obstruct this, and (b) since the extension will run the entire length of our decking, when we sit out in our garden our view will now be of a bricks and mortar wall :-(

We don't want to fall out with our neighbours as they are nice people and it is always preferable to have good neighbourly relations. We have expressed our concern already about losing light and view but they still plan to fully extend. When the previous owners carried out their building works, we lost a fair bit of light and view then which was annoying as the building works were announced the first week we moved in (the vendors of our house had failed to notify us that they had received notice of these works). So I guess we feel that we're going to lose yet more light/views and feel even more hemmed in.

Legally, I don't think we have grounds for opposing the application as the obstruction of light/view would need to be significant. We could go to mediation to get them to change their plans but then the cost and stress of this when there's no guaranteed favourable outcome and the cost to neighbourly relations makes me think this isn't a desirable option either.

We're just so upset about our neighbours plans. We haven't lived in our house for very long either.

In our shoes, what would mumsnetters advise that we do? We have been honest with our neighbours in expressing our concern but if they intend to stick with their plans to extend so far out, what real options do we have left?

Sorry for the long post and appreciate any advice or guidance that mumsnetters can give. Thanks!

Sorry, I don't think you have much to appeal on, loss of light has to be significant.

If they need access to your property to build up to the boundary you can refuse.

You seem to be resigned that this is a fait a complit. Hopefully it's not. I'd want to look into planning rules and get professional advice if it was me. Would the new extension extend beyond the previous extension, or are they extending from another side of the building to the previous extension?

There's not a lot you can do. You have no "right" to light, and definitely not to a view. Put yourself in their shoes and think what you would do if you wanted to extend. Would you worry about your neighbour's view?
With our climate, you probably can only sit out for a few months if the year anyway, do I suggest you do some clever planting against the brick wall, and suck it up.

Hey bodger... What is ur property? Terraced? Detached? Semi?

Do they need planning permission for this extension (do u know the permitted development rules)?

As an aside, for naps white noise may be your friend helps mask loads of random sound.

miramar the previous extension was a loft conversion. This is a ground floor rear extension extending their rear room as far out into the back garden as regulations will permit.

criminallawyer unfortunately for me, I am the kind of person that would think about my neighbour's views but then that's me and doesn't always make sense to do this as neighbours do change! I know we don't sit out much but the extension would partially obstruct the view and limit light into the kitchen where I do spend a lot of time.

sisterofcaleb its a terraced house and they do need planning permission. I dont know the rules but it sounds like they've already looked into this and theres no reason why permission would be denied. White noise will work for the baby but not for me sadly. What I plan to do is agree days and hours that building work can take place just to make sure that they're reasonable.

Because of the current relaxation in planning it will go ahead. However, if they are doing work within 2m of your boundary and should ask you to have a party wall agreement. Or you can appoint a surveyor which they will pay for, it isn't really a solution but will ensure your property isn't damaged.
Very few people would think about their neighbours if planning would allow whatever they want to do.

Although you can't stop it many la will put times of work into the planning decision to reduce disruption. Won't help for naps but might for weekends/evenings etc. so worth putting this to the council,

I don't think you'll be able to dictate what days and hours your neighbours builders can work. That is set by the planning dept, unless a private road.

From our experience there are default work hours, where noise can be heard from within the site boundary. Usually something like Mon to Fri 8am to 5pm.

I would ask them what it is costing and see if you can get yours done at the same time.

I was also going to suggest you look into the possibility of extending at the same time, certainly if this is something you might consider at some point. I think the plans will definitely go ahead and opposing them is just going ruin the relationship. Isn't your kitchen window at the end of the house (so looking down your garden)?

YOu've got nothing to lose in ringing up the planning dept at the local council to get their advice and see if there is anything that can be done to lessen the impact on your property - they're not just there to rubber stamp people who want extensions building.

Hey bodger well if they need planning permission then obviously that system is there to allow you to object. But I see what others are saying about neighbourly relations if it will definitely go through. But I would definitely ring planning and talk to them about it. You have nothing to lose?

Also you could talk to a party wall surveyor before the party wall notice is served to get an indication of what your rights are if/when the work goes ahead. This will prepare you for the process and hopefully mean the interests of your property are protected as much as possible.

You cannot refuse access Unexpected. This falls under the Partywall act and access for permitted building work must be allowed. However, the times and terms can be worked out by an impartial surveyor via the dispute resolution process in the PartyWall act if you and your neighbour can't agree on it.

Hours of work can also be agreed via the Party Wall act. Planners very rarely put stipulations on this in applications though it's possible. A Partywall surveyor will as standard assume Mon-Friday 8am until 5pm and half days on Saturday. There would need to be a specific reason in your circumstances for a different recommendation I believe.

Under permitted development the eves of the side extension are preferred to be no more than 2.2m from memory. That really isn't that much higher than a garden fence so are you sure their plans will really impact you that much? Based on the size of the extension it sounds like they are going for permitted development rather than planning- you can get a certificate of lawfulness from the planning dept certifying your proposed work fall under the permitted development rules which can help when it's time to sell. If the eves are going to be higher based on the plans they have shared with you talk to them to see if they would consider amending / compromising on the height of the eves and if not, you can object to the the application on those grounds.

Good luck but the work they are proposing sounds fairly reasonable.

Agree you will not be able to stop it.
I therefore suggest you sit down with your neighbours to see how you can get the best outcome eg the type of bricks on the blind wall (your view), hours of work, any new fencing or similar that can be done at the same time. Just think of all the things that would make it better for you and ask!

In terraced properties permitted development rules allow up to 3m, or currently up to 6m if there is neighbour agreement. Otherwise a full planning application must be made.

I would definitely be ringing people in the know or googling things like suggested re the eves to try and ensure the best outcome.

Agree their plans if within standard planning don't sound unreasonable.

Also a Partywall surveyor does not ensure damage isn't done to your property. That is what Building Control is for.

The Party Wall surveyor is appointed as part of a dispute resolution process concerning work near shared boundaries and shared walls. They lay out terms of access, working hours and do a conditions schedule with photos of the neighbours property before work starts so there is an agreed basis if damage occurs and someone needs to make a claim. All of this can be done / agreed between neighbours so this only is envisioned as a way to get through an impasse with an objective 3rd party making the decision.

Building control ensure proposed work is safe and up to code. They review initial plans and supervise work throughout to ensure the plans are being implemented properly.

Look at the governments planning portal website. It has a really good guide on what people can and cant do.

A 3m single story extension is unlikely to need planning permission unless it is conditioned by a prior permission ot you live in an area covered by an article 4 direction.

If it is over 3 m then they will, at the very least, submit aprior notification application to the local authority. You woukd have the right to object to this but you must do it quicky! If no objections are received the la cannot refuse it.

Quickly not quicky

Just double checked and under permitted development the eaves height shouldn't be higher than the existing eaves. However, in Southwark, when the planners are looking at actual applications rather than just certifying PD they prefer an eves height of 2.2m.

Hope that helps!

How did the previous loft conversion cause you the loss of a fair bit of light and view? Is one house set back from the other or similar?

LondonGirl my neighbours are doing an extension (loft and single story) and as we are end of terrace will that mean they will be able to use our backyard for access? I am a bit at that...although I suppose it does make sense but I hadn't considered it really.

What a bastard though. During summer when I want to let DD run around outside in our yard she won't be able to as the fence will be down and builders will be roaming around?

How does that work? I have to leave the gate unlocked so they can use it any time?

Possum - my MiL's neighbours in a terrace asked her to agree to a partywall thing that took building materials etc through her house (another terrace) and she told them where to go - quite why they thought they could swan through her house with their building materials rather than their own I don't know!

Being end of terrace, I don't know if you are required to allow access through your garden. It might be nice if you did - but you might be able to limit it severely to, eg, a day for the scaffolders to get stuff up, and for materials to be brought onto site - then fences go back up so that you can enjoy your garden (even if it is a building site next door) and then similar at the end to get the scaffolding down. However, I do not know whether you would be 'required' to even allow this - they might ask it but you might be able to decline.

thanks mistle that actually doesn't sound too bad. I don't want to be a pain to our neighbours as they are really quite and have never complained about our rather boisterous 3 year old and fecking DH who winds her up and is just as loud at times

But what a bloody cheek of your MIL's neighbours? WHO would think that was OK??

They did take the biscuit - and then try to blame you that you didn't have any cake to offer them when they came round to harangue you... You need to know what you are legally required to do - and then decide whether you want to go a bit further than that to assist your neighbours in a neighbourly fashion. However, if you're doing this I might insist upon something to protect the lawn from damage from wheelbarrows or something (you can get special stuff to put down to spread the load - but even some old carpet would help a bit.

Just wondering - on the basis of the last few posts - if they say they have to come through your garden, are you allowed to charge them over and above what it will cost them to put your garden right again? And if you have plans for your garden - ie for your kids to be playing out in it all summer - and their plans make it unsafe or impossible to do that (be it just for a day or two at the beginning and end of the works or for much longer throughout them), then are you able to claim compensation?