Dangerous garden wall - neighbours responsibility

[HarrietVaneAgain]

We have just brought an Edwardian semi with a long garden. The walls both side are brick and flint and the deeds require them to be replaced with brick. The side which is our responsiblity was replaced 5 years ago at the cost of £2500.

The other side (the non semi side) is original and the responsibility of our elderly neighbours. When we had the survey done we were warned it was liable to fall over at anytime and that falling flints would pose a hazard to young children. Our vendors spoke to the neighbour about this and we chatted to them. In the nicest possible way they told us that they had no intention of doing anything the attitude was that it had been fine for 100 years so why worry now. We brought the house anyway.

Since then it's got worse chunks of flint the size of a foot have fallen out of the wall and I could easily see them killing or seriously injuring a child if they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. We have three buckets full of flints. Other bits lean a lot and could easily collapse into the garden. We have restricted the access to large parts of the wall to our 4 and 2 year olds. But can't keep them away from all of it especially when the worst part is by the side gate which we use daily.

I know one of the couple is seriously ill and I've absolutely no intention of causing them stress but I would really like to do something about a situation that I now feel is dangerous for my kids. I think the could be asset rich cash poor and I'm not sure if they have the money to repair it.

Thanks for reading all that! I guess my questions are. How would I go about approaching them on this and, if it came to it, can I force them to repair/rebuild?

Well I have just built a two storey extension...assuming they could reuse at least some of the bricks and the existing wall, I think it could be done for well under £12500. And of course you won't know until you get some actual quotes.

If you reuse bricks, each one has to be cleaned of old mortar before it can be used again! Doesn't it? This is labour intensive and expensive! A wall will use bricks, sometimes double width to make it structurally sound. You cannot use cheap blocks. You are comparing apples and pears MummytoMog .

And you're assuming that none of the wall is sound enough to be built around and that there are no existing foundations. Nearly £1000 per metre still sounds ludicrous to me. Sorry, but it does.

Reclaimed bricks are financially viable, that's what apprentices are for. God knows we had enough apprentices round here doing the grunt work and they were not paid very much at all compared to the builders. They did do a nice job of clearing rubble, filling in holes, cleaning the drive and carrying materials around though.

We reclaimed all the old bricks from our tiered garden to reuse later. It's surprisingly not difficult to knock the mortar off when you get the knack. It's more how many of them break as you do it rather than cleaning them that's the problem.

There is no mortar on a lot of theses bricks. Never seen that as a plus before! our vendors rebuild the other wall with new bricks and used the old in an extension, which looks very nice.

If it was knocked down and not replaced what problem would that cause?

I think the council can as part of the enforcement repair and then place a legal charge on the property to recover the costs when it is sold.

I would contact your local planning enforcement officer for advice.
You could also try the garden law website.

I'd rather have it knocked down then a threat to the kids tbh. We have arranged big pots to discourage the kids from going down the side passage without us. I'm going to go and buy a fence this afternoon to fence off the top third of the garden where the wall leans our way rather than theirs.

Will try the Garden Law website - thanks!

If I were you I would get a surveyor to write a letter about the condition and danger of the walk. Then I would enclose that with a letter to your neighbours point in out that they would be liable if the wall caused any injury or damage. I would offer to help to knock it down to a safe height, if any, and ensure they deal with the debris safely and tidily.

I wouldn't insist they rebuild it, who's got £12.5k to spend on a garden wall?

The costs aren't £1000 a metre. The length is 150 feet which is 45 metres. So cost per metre is about £280.

I do feel sorry for your poor neighbors. No need to be old and sick. If I had to find 12500 to replace my wall being cash-strapped young family, this wouldn't be easy.

I would suggest looking into cheaper options of repairs (reclaimed bricks, or repairing/repointing) and offering to share the costs and organize the jobs on your side.

What a tricky situation to be in.

Before you go down the legal route it might be worth mentioning to them again that you have serious concerns.
Obviously you don't know anything about their financial affairs but it might be the hassle of sorting it that's putting them off. You could suggest that you'll get quotes and oversee the work if they're prepared to pay.

Worth a shot?

That will certainly be my first strategy Madly they have had a copy of our surveyors report so it is not like they don't know the condition of the wall. However all the rain recently has definitely made it worse.

Why don't you suggest fencing it instead? If they can't pay, offer to go halves. Small price to pay to protect your kids safety and this way you keep the neighbours onside?

Ok. DH is FIStructE and is a Consulting Structural Engineer. I have consulted him on your behalf over lunch! If the wall needs to be 9ins wide with piers and is 45m long he would not be surprised if a new wall would be at least £15,000 depending on the quality of bricks used, the height of the wall and the number needed. The old wall will have to be demolished and taken away if the owners do not want to keep the bricks and flints. You cannot use blocks as you do in a house. If the wall is old and leaning he feels it is likely the foundations are too shallow and the wall is failing. You could get a structural engineer to do an inspection of it.

What no-one should do is get someone who does not understand structural brickwork to advise you or, indeed, build a new wall. The idea that cheap lads will be a great cost saving ruse is probably false. DH says that walls are very expensive structures because there are no short cuts in materials (you could reuse the bricks if they are sound and you are prepared to clean them), the design of the wall and the cost of the foundations. This wall would be equivalent in foundations to a 15m x 15m extension (3 sides) and many people do not build an extension this size. This wall could be structurally unsound and potentially hazardous. DH says it can be difficult to rebuild bits of a wall if it is leaning or it is all on insufficient foundations. It is best to contact the local council and/or get it checked yourself. Hope this helps.

Yes, you should obviously not trust 'lads' to clean bricks. Or things like "clearing rubble, filling in holes, cleaning the drive and carrying materials around".

I am a bit embarassed by my shoddy imperial to metric conversion though, but on the plus side what a lovely big garden!

Thanks Milly. That tallys very much with what the wall on the otherside looks like/costs. I get what you are saying Photo but their responsibility is to replace like with like and the idea that I should accept less because my children's safety is at stake feels a bit like blackmail. Not saying that is what they are thinking. They are away this weekend so can't speak to them but I will call the council for advice tomorrow.

They may be responsible for removing wall if it is dangerous but if it is their boundary I don't think you can oblige them to put up another wall. Surely they could put up a fence or actually nothing at all.

MummytoMog. All the little jobs you quote are not where the expense lies in building a wall! There is little saving to be gained here. Really.

OP. Can you find out why the deeds mention rebuilding the wall at the neighbours expense? This inclusion is a bit odd we think and may suggest there has been a dispute and a form of resolution previously. Not carried out though.

usually the deeds stipulate a couple of alternatives, e.g. it has to be brick wall or a shrub 'wall' of specified size. You probably wouldn't say no to shrubs?

It's nothing to do with any recent disputes. Each house in our road has a covenant on the land registry entry from 1905 when the church sold for the land for housing. This requires that on x side of the property we 'erect and forevermore maintain a wall of brick no less than x feet high'

I have experience from the other side.

A few weeks after my dad died I got a "dangerous structure" notice from the council about his brick garden wall. I was told to rectify the situation within a week and that if I didnt the council would and they'd charge me for their work.

Might be cheaper to replace the wall with a fence and take out insurance in case anyone objects to the breach of covenant.

It may be worth speaking to a solicitor about getting the covenant changed ,I'm sure after so long it will be possible .i used to live on a new development where there was a covenant saying no works vehicles / caravans were to be parked on driveways and somebody got that changed.

Thanks Flora and Rusty, but as an interested party I don't feel it would be appropriate for me to advise them about solicitors or insurance. That would be up to them. They were both formerly senior professionals so I don't think they should have difficulty understanding and accessing advice.

Viva that sound awful. I would hate that to happen to them will ring the council for advice only on scope of their responsibilities at this stage.

I'd be inclined to push the wall over and do an insurance claim.