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Original poster

Boundary issue - we are losing our driveway to next door

53 replies

MyLadyAnita · 28/03/2014 22:30

Hi - The builder who is re-furbishing the property next door offered to erect new boundary fencing between our two properties if we bought the panels and posts, which we did.

It is our boundary fence so we bought the panels and posts and he put them up last week. It makes his refurbishment look good and our fence was pretty rotten so we were chuffed as he did not charge for his labour. The back garden fencing he did is fine and follows the boundary line of the old fencing.

However, he has not reinstated the "dog-leg" return at the front of our property (where the front fencing meets our front wall of our home) which should allow for the line of our boundary that the eaves take. He has fixed a wooden fence post straight onto the side wall of our home to fix the fencing to when there was approx 8inches of space between our old fence line and our home (to allow for chimney breasts and eaves overhang on our home). We have never had fencing along the side of our home but we had "dog-leg" returns at both the front and back walls so it could clearly be seen that about 8inches of driveway along the length of our home in the drive next door belonged to us to allow us access to drains etc.

He is doing a really excellent job on the property next door and has been very generous in putting up our fencing for no charge.

My question is.......... should we be concerned that we have lost some of our boundary. I am not sure that it really matters where fencing goes as the deeds and plans will state the boundary lines but could the builder changing the building line (and his intention is to sell the property next door to us as soon as it is finished) and sell some of our land to the new purchasers of next door? Anyone buying next door would naturally believe that they owned the whole driveway as things stand when, in fact, we own 8inches of their drive that runs the length of our home!

Any advice appreciated. What I did not want was to go on a crusade costing us thousand of £££'s if it really does not matter in reality.

OP posts:

PartialFancy · 02/04/2014 07:17

What eskinosekiss said, with bells on.

And why do you imagine this is going to "cost you a fortune"? If you say No now, it won't cost you anything.

But if you leave it, you could be facing huge bills to get access to the side of your house.

This is an absolutely classic case of a stitch in time saves nine.

PartialFancy · 02/04/2014 07:27

In fact, go out there now with a friend and lift the offending fence panel(s) out of the slot(s).

Unscrew the fence post he has illegally attached to your building.

Both of these items belong to you: you paid for them. Store them where he can't get at them.

If you have a pickaxe or garden fork, plough up your area along the side of the house. He is not going to lay tarmac on your land, so does not need a nice prepared base there.

It's clear this guy just does what the heck he likes every time your back is turned, and relies on gabble to keep you in your box till he's moved on.

LIZS · 02/04/2014 07:32

are you allowed to tarmac front drives now , thought you were supposed to sue porous materials for drainage. Definitely send the builder and owner (if different) a letter outlining the issue and refusing their plans and access, with a copy of your deed plan if needs be.

WhatDoIDoHere · 02/04/2014 09:06

*In fact, go out there now with a friend and lift the offending fence panel(s) out of the slot(s).

Unscrew the fence post he has illegally attached to your building.

Both of these items belong to you: you paid for them. Store them where he can't get at them.

If you have a pickaxe or garden fork, plough up your area along the side of the house. He is not going to lay tarmac on your land, so does not need a nice prepared base there.

It's clear this guy just does what the heck he likes every time your back is turned, and relies on gabble to keep you in your box till he's moved on.*

^This

Pimpf · 02/04/2014 09:41

It'll cost you a damn sight more in the future. Stop letting him tell you what he's going to do. Tell him it is your land and he has no rights to do that. Stop dithering and get round there now

PigletJohn · 02/04/2014 12:10

Also mention that potential buyers will be informed that there is a boundary dispute. It's a thing solicitors are supposed to check during a purchase and will run a mile or make him pay for insurance.

I like the idea of lifting your fence panels out. Preferably by two fit people on stepladders on a non-windy day.

PartialFancy · 02/04/2014 12:16

Indeed. But it can be done on a chair by one strong person if motivated the non-windy day is less negotiable.

ContentedSidewinder · 02/04/2014 12:35

I totally agree that you should have a look at GardenLaw forum for the boundary issues, also take photos now of what he has done.

For anyone having a fence replaced, take photos before and after to avoid this sort of thing (can you tell I have been there, done that?)

I understand he wants it to look good with tarmacing the entire width of the drive but it implies that the whole thing belongs to next door.

Why can he not demarcate your land with a row of bricks then tarmac the other side up to your house. Looks good and clearly shows who owns what. Or you get your choice of what he lays on your land.

If he doesn't listen to you tell him you will declare a boundary dispute to anyone who comes to buy the property (easily done with a note on the side of your house) and no decent solicitor would allow a sale to go though unless the boundary issue had been dealt with.

None of this has to cost you any money, the longer it takes to sell, the more it will cost him money so it makes sense that he wants it sorted. You don't need a solicitor, you just remove anything he has attached to your property, with care, and return it to him. Yes, yes, he will tell you he will call the police but they see it as a civil matter and don't get involved.

Trust me, read gardenlaw. I lived on that website for over a year when my mate had something similar happen to her.

Original poster

MyLadyAnita · 02/04/2014 19:39

I have looked on Google Earth (I had not thought of doing that so appreciate the suggestion). I am a but put out now that it clearly shows the picket post fence that was only ever meant to be temporary and which was fixed to a post straight onto our property front wall. I was hoping that Google Earth would show the original 3ft brick wall that was there when our property was originally built in the 1930's. The picket post fence was the temporary boundary put up when the original low brick wall (with dog leg that demarked our boundary) fell into disrepair and was removed by the previous owner just before we bought the property about 10years ago (probably to tonse it up to look pretty!) . We know there was an original brick wall with dog leg as the foundations to the original front wall between our properties could be seen quite clearly in the driveway between our two properties. The new tarmac drive has now obliterated any evidence.

I have looked at the original deeds and plans as we do have copies when we bought the property. We cannot find anything to say where the boundary line is.

I am guessing that the builder will see Google Earth too (and see what we know to be temporary cheap fencing). This will only strengthen his case to put his fence back where the old picket post fencing was (even though it was only meant to be a temporary fence).

I think we are stuffed really so are going to gracefully retreat from years of expensive litigation.

Thank you all so very much for your help and advice. Much appreciated.

OP posts:

HeartShapedStone · 02/04/2014 21:21

But it will cost you nothing to write a letter and stick a notice to the wall saying there is a dispute, which will cost the builder thousands in delayed sale.

If you have trouble accessing your property for maintenance, or selling your house in the future, it will cost thousands.

MILdesperandum · 02/04/2014 22:10

I'm not sure but I think you can view old version of google earth?

try this productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/earth/CsCF_Q1Nw4k

Jaynebxl · 03/04/2014 05:09

Does this change mean you can't access your back garden from the front? Not sure if I am getting the right idea.

miramar · 03/04/2014 08:54

There's no need to walk away and ignore this. Put a sign on your all saying you don't give permission for any changes on your land, and that there is a boundary dispute. That costs nothing.

miramar · 03/04/2014 08:54

On your wall

PartialFancy · 03/04/2014 09:29

Mm, I think that might blow back on the OP eventually, though.

If she goes as far as a notice, might she have to declare there was a boundary dispute when she moves house, too?

But agree - builder has much more to lose than OP.

PartialFancy · 03/04/2014 09:30

BTW, builder hasn't been "generous in putting your fence up for no charge."

He's been clever getting you to pay for the materials for a fence he would have had to put up anyway, to make his development look good.

Original poster

MyLadyAnita · 03/04/2014 22:22

Thanks all. PartialFancy - you are right about the fence making the builder's development look good. Luckily he did respect the original boundary in the back garden but only because he used the existing concrete posts so could not re-site them.

We think we will write to the builder and let him know that we are not happy that he has moved our boundary to widen the drive of his development at our expense. As he is desperate to secure a sale it may make him sit up and listen if he thinks any sale may be held up if it goes to a boundary dispute. It is worth a try and I think we will regret it if we don't.

I keep wavering as dh feels we would never use that small piece of land we have lost to the developer. The boundary in dispute is on the side we never use rather than on the side where our own driveway is which is the other side away from his development.

It really is about the principle of him pinching it and also the hassle it will give our children when they eventually inherit the property.

OP posts:

miramar · 03/04/2014 22:34

The builder has tried it on with you, he's testing how cheeky he can be and how much you will ignore. I can appreciate the temptation to ignore this and hope for the best, but a little assertiveness now could prevent years of frustration. The builder won't be living there himself, so get this sorted now and you'll never have to see or think about him again.

Morgause · 04/04/2014 08:32

Remind him he has to notify potential buyers that there is a boundary dispute.

Birdsighland · 04/04/2014 08:49

Oh dear. I would suspect the builder/developer had the new fence line in mind when he 'offered' to install the fence you paid for. It's in his possession now, as far as he's concerned. I understand how a rigid fence would have caused problems, but maybe wiring strung across connecting the two ends of the fence lines are a good idea . They would still allowed air to circulate as well.

That has not caused the problem though. He took down your old fence and reinstalled the new one where he wanted to. He's making no bones about it either, in fact he's rather cavalier in stating he intends to tarmac all the drive. He was not generous in putting up the fencing for no charge. As a builder, it would have cost him very little time in labour and he acquired your land as charge, without your consent. My main concern would be if the side of your house now becomes the boundary. If it is on the boundary, I believe he could build onto it without your consent (all pp in order, of course).

Would you not think of getting someone in to do the front pronto, or just take out the area that had been moved back? You'd only have to pay for labour. Then stringing wire from end of the back fencing to join the front fencing.

If the margin really doesn't bother you, then I can understand your reluctance to set anything in motion, although it is awful when a charlatan succeeds like this. I hope it all works out ok for you.

NCRegular · 04/04/2014 09:23

Just dig up the tarmac on your land and remove the fence on your land, you paid for it and it is your land.

ContentedSidewinder · 04/04/2014 11:13

Please don't let the idea that you have to declare the boundary dispute in any future sale put you off doing something about it now.

It would read something like this, the neighbouring property was renovated by a builder in 2014 who put the fence in the wrong position. We informed him of this and it was rectified. All settled.

And it clearly would be as you have no reason to be moving from your property in the next 10 years (indicated by your posts)

The only time it is a problem is when the dispute is on going ie you saying to the builder, I am not happy we need this to be sorted. If he tried to sell with you being unhappy he has to fill out a sellers pack form which is a legally binding document. He can be sued by the new home owner if he doesn't declare the dispute.

The tarmac drive can be dug up, marked or painted in a way that clearly shows which bit is your land. If the new neighbour parks their caravan on that part of the drive and refuses to move it how will you maintain your property?

There is a reason the original builders put a strip of land down that side. The builder is a bully and he is trying to get you to accept what he wants. He gets to walk away from this when he is done, you have to live with it.

Plumpcious · 04/04/2014 11:16

Hold on a minute, the OP is now saying there was already a 10-year old 'temporary' picket fence attached to her front wall. So did the builder just put the new fence exactly where the old picket fence was? In which case it's unfair of people to accuse him of being a chancer. Unless the OP pointed out to him that the existing front garden fence wasn't actually along the boundary line, then I don't think it's fair to blame the builder.

eskinosekiss · 04/04/2014 16:29

Tell the builder he can either define your boundary by removing the 8-inch strip of tarmac and you wil fill the recess with gravel, or if he refuses, you will define your boundary line using yellow emulsion paint. Ask him which he would prefer when showing people around the house to sell it.

PartialFancy · 04/04/2014 16:55

Tip: do not write that he has moved your boundary.

Write that he has erected the fence some distance from the boundary, and that he has tarmacked your land.

I know it's a small thing, but the first phrasing is telling him he's already won.

Plumpcious I agree it could initially have been a mistake if the builder didn't know. But his response to OP making clear not only where the boundary was, but that she was unhappy about the fence, was to say he'd already prepared the base and was going to tarmac her land anyway.

So I'd say benefit of the doubt has gone up in smoke.

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