Help me choose between these two architects

[ChickenLickenSticken]

We're having part of the downstairs re-jigged, so knocking down walls rather than building per se. We've had three quotes from architects to help us with the design of the layout and two are contenders:

1 - recommended by 3 seperate friends, one who has used him twice on different properties. Fees are £950+vat plus extra for structural engineer (though he thinks we may be able to avoid using one). Unlimited revisions to the initial design, and he likes to finalise this by having clients come to his office where he has a big projector 3D images and we can play around with the design there and then.

2 - recommended by the builder DH is currently working with (DH is a carpenter). £700 no VAT, plus £250 for structural engineer (she seems to think we will deffo need one). This is for a "few sketches" then more fees if we change significantly from the initial design.

We "clicked" with both of them, perhaps with No1 on a more pragmatic level and with No2 on a more emotional level. In fact I say "we" but DH didn't meet No2 as he was at work.

We won't be using them for the project management side of things though I guess may ask them to help with the design of the kitchen if this isn't included in the design of the layout.

It's obviously quite a big expense but we desperately need help with ideas and finalising the design as we know what we want but not sure how to make it work yet. Both have said it's not difficult and No1 even said he thought our budget was more than we'd really need which was reassuring. I didn't really talk budgets with No2 but made it clear we do not have a blank cheque book.

Who to go with!?

I don't think you can knock down walls without using a Structural Engineer to be honest. If you are doing this properly, you will need to be Building COntrol approval from your Local Authority, and they will require SE info relating to any structural works you will do.

You say #1 is more pragmatic, but I wouldn't really cut corners by omitting an Engineer.

And Architects are traditionally slightly rubbish with budgets (speaking as one myself!), so I would beware of one who claimed to be able to give you change out of a building project.....!

Well that's kind of what I thought orangina, but I didn't get the impression he was trying to scrimp or cut corners. This is what he says:

^In a scheme like this, the council may require certain elements to be calculated by a structural engineer. I.e. steelwork. We do however try to avoid as much of this for you within the design to minimise the cost. This element will be calculated when the design is finally awarded planning permission should it be required.

Should planning permission be refused by the local authority and a re-submission be required, we will only re charge you the time taken to amend the drawings and re-submit the application. This is calculated on a time spent basis. Council policy is to not charge for a second re-submission^

If it is all internal work, you live in a house not a flat and it is not a listed building you won't need planning permission. So that bit is rubbish. You will need approval under the Building Regs which relates to the structural aspects of building. Depends which walls you are taking down I imagine - load-bearing or not.

I think he's just copied and pasted stuff incorrectly. Full quote wording below. We are knocking down part of one load-bearing wall (the original back wall to the house).

It was good to meet you both on Wednesday evening in relation to your potential home alterations. I have prepared an estimate for the preferred scheme as follows, as a basis to produce the model of your home so future scenarios can be applied if required.

I have set out below the design elements we talked about and the associated costs.

· Within the brief there is no scope to actually extend the property, instead only re-configure the inside.

· The existing play room would be opened up into the existing rear kitchen and the existing kitchen opened up into the rear remaining extension.

· The existing playroom would possibly incorporate doors from the hallway leading to the rear and providing a through view from the front door to the rear garden. The remaining area would accommodate a utility and possible cloakroom.

· The kitchen space will then be extended into the rear extension providing a more open plan and usable living/entertaining area. Dependant on budget, folding doors could be incorporated into the rear wall allowing additional light and feeling of space.

· The current lounge will still remain separated off from the rear area allowing a private area if required.

· The flat roof will need to be looked into and upgraded for better insulation.

The bullet points above are only a rough guide to the brief and no doubt the scheme will evolve during the design process.

We would need to carry out a full survey and then prepare draft designs for you to alter as you wish.

The design will be presented via 2d and 3d imaging along with a session at our office on the projector.

Each stage will be subject to payment, only when it is completed and ready to submit to the local authority. I have prepared an estimate as follows which should breakdown the various aspects of the design process.

Planning Permission

This planning element illustrates to the local authority how the proposal is designed and what effect on the neighbours and the immediate environment will take place as a result of the scheme. Planning permission, is the process of approved design. Within this element we will be providing you with draft designs to meet the brief and then layout drawings for the submission of planning permission to the local authority. This is usually the largest hurdle to overcome within the whole process.

Planning permission will not be required so no charge will be applied.

Design Plans & Building Regulations Drawings

This building regulations element illustrates to the building control team at the local authority how the proposal is to be built, taking into consideration construction materials and the current building regulations. These can also be considered as “working drawings”. It should be noted that this drawing element isn’t usually started until all planning or lawful certificates are in place.

Design and drawings including all submission works. £950 +VAT

Building regulations fee (Payable to council). This is calculated on floor area and can’t give exact figures as yet.

Additional fees if required.

In a scheme like this, the council may require certain elements to be calculated by a structural engineer. I.e. steelwork. We do however try to avoid as much of this for you within the design to minimise the cost. This element will be calculated when the design is finally awarded planning permission should it be required.

Should planning permission be refused by the local authority and a re-submission be required, we will only re charge you the time taken to amend the drawings and re-submit the application. This is calculated on a time spent basis. Council policy is to not charge for a second re-submission.

I hope the above is clear, but should you require any confirmation, please advise.

I have attached to this e-mail some images of other conversions we have carried out. This should give you an idea of what to expect at the design stage.

I have also attached a link to our website below. If you click on image gallery down the left hand side, you will be able to view some of our work local and further afield.

There are also a few notes on the planning and building regulations procedure.

Unless it's a listed building it's not going to need planning permission. Internal alterations to structural walls will need building regulations approval.
I hope this is a misunderstanding on your part because if your architect gets that basic part wrong then I'd be concerned.
Are they both registered architects with full insurance?
Not all architects are rubbish with budgets, I'm pretty good with some categories of work and can give a good rough estimate for certain things. If they do a lot of similar work then they are much more likely to be able to estimate on a more accurate basis. Some however are rather optimistic crap at it though, so be wary. I'd always have a good contingency (for those unexpected problems, extra desires) and a good architect would advise you to have one.
I tend to suggest that people go with recommendations and gut feeling.
I feel for clients it's important to click with their architects as they end up working closely with us. This is especially important for domestic clients as their homes are very important to them so it's crucial that they work with somebody who listens and responds to their needs and can provide inspiration when needed.
Have you seen examples of their work?

They both confirmed that re PP wonky

The first guy as it turns out did work on a friends current house and her last house. I didn't get his name from her but he sent photos/drawings of previous work and I recognised the house so chatted with my friend who said they'd used him twice as had her dad. It was another friend who used him for her extension a couple of years ago and is using him again currently for her loft conversion.

Our builder is pushing for the second one, says she's the best he's worked with and the only one he recommends out to people. So knowing they've worked together a lot is comforting.

Thinking about it my dads best friend is a builder so I'll see if he's worked with either. To be honest though, I suspect they'll both be fine and as I said I'd happily choose either really. Shame the fees aren't £200 so I could get them both working on it!!