Leak from newly fitted toilet!

[BlogOnTheTyne]

Recently had a new toilet/cloakroom put in, adjoining a new room. Only just realised that there's a leak somewhere under the toilet and that every time it's flushed and even in-between times, water is leaking onto the newly laid tiled floor and now seeping into the new room adjoining it.

Builders are supposed to come back today and I think they're going to have to take out the toilet and take up the new floor tiles, find where the leak is, seal it and then re-fit everything.

My main worry is that surely it'll now take ages for the flooring to dry out before they can refit the floor tiles but also, the flooring of the adjoining room will be damp underneath for some time?

Fortunately, that room hasn't had anything fitted to the 'raw' floor state since it was built. However, a different company doing this floor are booked to come the week after next and it took ages to get them to agree a date before Xmas, which is now fixed.

If they start to fit that floor - which will be boarding it out with wood and then Amtico wood effect vinyl - will the floor start to 'raise' and buckle over time, as the damp underneath, from the leaking toilet, slowly rises/permeates? Should I cancel the flooring fitting and give it 2 months or something to dry out?

However, this may mean me having to pay that other company for storage of the flooring in their warehouse and is also of course a major hassle, given we were needing the new room - with adjoining toilet, by Xmas.

I'm not even sure if the original builders are going to take out the toilet and have a proper look or take up their newly laid tiled floor in the toilet and start again. I'm presuming they'll have to rectify their mistake without me paying them anything else, including take up the tiles etc. Am I right?

The job was fixed price and was actually finished - more or less - and paid for in full, at least 3 weeks ago but I've not yet used the new room because I was waiting for the flooring to be fitted. That's why I've only just realised that there's a leak under the toilet, that's only been used a few times at all.

Can the builders blame me for not realising this earlier and thus potentially saving damage to all the flooring? How long should I wait for thr underlying flooring to dry out before fitting over the top?

The work should be guaranteed and you shouldn't have to pay anything. They have the responsibility to put it right.

Ring trading standards for advice if you have any trouble.

Does anyone know how long it might take underflooing to dry out after a leak, as I expect the builders will just say it's all fine to re-lay on top?

It may well be leaking where the cistern joins to the back of the pan. There is a big rubber "doughnut" washer that can get squashed or mis-fitted. Wrap kitchen roll round so you can see if it gets damp.

It might also be where the China spigot on the back of the WC pushes into the plastic socket on the soil pipe. Hopefully the soil pipe is horizontal through the wall and not vertical through the floor.

It is much less common for the China pan to be cracked.

Is it a concrete floor, or wood with a ventilated void beneath?

Thanks PigletJohn. It's a concrete floor (previously a garage) with hardboard/flooring boards on a wood frame on top (a floating floor I think they called it?).

When I wipe kitchen roll around the main waste pipe that feeds into that rubber part (if that's what you mean), then yes, it is a bit damp but I can't be sure if that's condensation and it doesn't seem to get even wetter when I fush the toilet, so maybe isn't where the main leak is.

Very irritated sounding builder about to arrive - he was clearly v cross on the phone at being told to work today by the main builder and given this is probably his own fault for bad fitting, he won't get paid, I presume - but is likely to take it out on me.

Now do I ply him with tea and smiles or do I remain detached and cross myself?

it sounds like there miss be no ventilated void under the floor, so it will not be able to dry out after the flooring goes down. So it needs to be fully dry. A floating floor is usually wood on top of insulation slab on top of dpm on top of concrete.

the flooring contractor may put an waterproof membrane on the subfloor if they know it is wet, but you must make sure they are aware of the leak, otherwise when the floor buckles they will say not their fault. There might be scope for puting a separate section round the WC later.

I can't visualise how the WC has been fitted before the finished floor.

You could use a dehumidifier to get the floor to dry out quicker?

The WC was fitted in the toilet room and then the toilet floor tiles fitted and this room adjoins the new living space that has the floating floor but still no proper flooring over the hardboard. I think the builders may have done the waterproof liner, the insulation and then the hardboards,,,just can't remember right this minute but it was all done to building regs. who kept checking at each stage.

Have a horrible feeling that the person coming out will try to say all is fine really and not want to move the toilet or tiled floor. He's not a plumber but he did the 'first fix' plumbing and the plumber - who isn't coming out - did the rest.

He's just now phoned to say he's running late...oh dear...

I'd crack out a dehumidifier personally, get it dried out. I bet it's the doughnut, close coupled cisterns are easy to fit, but easy to get wrong too. It goes in between the tank on the top and the actual loo pan. I hope he's fixing it right now! I have my builders in today as well, although they're quite cheery (presumably because I paid an invoice yesterday).

Oh dear...he arrived and is v stressed and I think he may actually be crying. He said he's v stressed at present and so I've given him sugary tea and am trying not to worry him more.

However, he's arrived convinced the problem if that he needs to replace that plastic 'bend' thing that goes at the back of the toilet and is simply going to take out the boxing round the pipes, fir a new one of those and come back next week to re-grout the floor tiles.

I said I was worried that it might not be what he thinks it is that's causing the leak and surely he needs to take everything out and have a proper look? I also said if he re-grouts the tiles and doesn't take them up, then isn't he effectively sealing in the huge amount of damp that will then not evaporate but simply make it's way under the floor and into the adjoining room floor?

I said that as long as the company is clear that if they don't do what I think needs to be done and the dampness causes problems at a later stage, they must be liable for repairing the flooring even though another company is going to be fitting that flooring.

I suppose I ought to email this in writing to the company so that they're clear of my expectations.

The man here has said that as the flooring is all sealed/waterproofed etc, that there won't be any problem but I'm not 100% sure he really knows enough about these things to be sure (he's fairly young).

Anyone advise me further at this point?

If he is very stressed, he probably does not have the skill and experience you need. An old plumber who has seen a thousand leaks would look at it and sigh, but know the cause and cure. he might sometimes get it wrong, but it should be nothing new.

Well he's now gone. He did take off the toilet in the end and said that the original plumber hadn't doen a silicone sealant aroumd the waste pipe and that this was the cause of the leak. He's left the new toilet in the car port and said he'll be back on Tuesday to refit and put back the boxing round the pipes and then re-grout the floor tiles - but he's not going to be taking up the tiles or anything.

I've emailed the building company setting out their decisions on this and my concerns and my expectation that they'll foot the bill if the damp already there penetrates into the soon-to-be-laid flooring and the previously laid tiles but I've not heard back from them.

The builder is clearly stressed and used out only functioning toilet, in another part of the house, for 3 extended 'visits'. He's left behind liquid diarrhoea on the toilet and I think ti was him last time who over the course of 9 weeks, used that toilet every day, several times, blocked it, used the toilet brush to unblock it and left liquid poo in the brush holder and dried poo all over the toilet seat!

I then spent a day deep cleaning in there and replacing the toilet seat and throwing out the toilet brush and now I've had to do it all again! Great!

Before he left today, I had to ask him to cover over the exposed waste pipe in the new and now not functioning toilet, to stop gases from the sewers coming into the house. Hope the flimsy plastic bag he's put over it does the trick.

I felt sorry for him today but also sorry for me who's had to clean up and am still not sure the repair works are going to prevent further issues. Really wish I'd done a plumbing qualification all those years ago!

There is nothing on a WC that should require silicon sealant. The china spigot on the back goes into a rubbery ring inside the plastic socket. The cistern goes onto the top of the pan with a big rubber washer. The supply pipe goes into the cistern with a washer. There are no other joints.

Oh no. Does that mean he didn't really know what he was talking about and what he plans to come back to do on Tuesdau won't fix the problem then?

Around the rubber to plastic part, at the back of the toilet waste pipe, I had noticed that it was slightly wet and posisbly leaking but it didn't seem nearly enough to cause the amount of liquid we've has on the floor.

If it's nothing to do with silicone sealant not being added, then what might it be? He said he'd still fit the new waste pipe he'd brough with him and reattach the toilet with it and seal it. But if this isn't the problem, then whatever it is will just recur, won't it? He'll also have re-grouted for nothing.

I feel powerless here as I'm not a plumber and only have limited internet knowledge of these things and so my worries aren't taken seriously by the builders. He's not coming back until Tuesday and then he'll just do what he plans to do and then go and then I'll only have 3 further weekdays before the flooring people arrive the following week to lay expensive flooring.

Still no reply from the building company about guaranteeing they'll foot the bill if the leak recurs/ continues/damages the flooring.

It seems to me that he is not an experienced plumber. Perhaps he is learning to be a general builder. Most building work any practical person can quickly learn to "handyman" level, but all trades need skill, experience and training to do a first-class job. I can't make pastry like my great grandfather, but he was a Swiss patissiere and taught my aunts.

Silicone sealant is a bodge.

Say to your builders that you are anxious to hear this person is proposing to use silicone sealant as you see the manufacturers instructions say it should not be used (this will be true, look on their website) and that obviously they (the builders) are responsible for a proper and workmanlike installation, so will they please tell you what they propose to do.

They will not want to reply to emails asking them to confirm liability for poor work. The small claims court can help if you can be bothered.

Did you say you've already paid them? There's a builder's joke "All work is guaranteed until the cheque clears"

PigletJohn - you are brilliant! I've now got the builders to see if they can send back the proper plumber - rather than the general builder - tomorrow - although it was the plumber who did something wrong in the first place! But at least he should be better qualified to see what needs to be done and get it right second time round.

The other general builder is apparently qualified to fit bathrooms - but not a qualified plumber - whatever that means.

I've talkd to one of the building directors and in no uncertain terms told him that if there's a further leak, aftre my proper flooring goes down - then I'd want to pursue reparation and re-fitting fees from the building company. Of course they're not putting anything in writing however but at least know how I'd be prepared to pursue it.

Yes, I paid the final fees for the whole building project about 3 or 4 weeks ago now and it's just 'luck' that the flooring company haven't been able to fit the floor until next week - otherwise I'd already be chasing the builders for repair fees!