Ancient boiler has just died - major refurbishment year. What would you do?

[Alutek]

So it was bound to happen... This house has an old boiler - think it's around 20 years old. This is our second winter in the house, and we're planning a major refurb and extension next year, which will include a new heating system and moving the position of the boiler. The boiler has (unsurprisingly) been temperamental and was nursed back into operation a couple of times last winter. But this time it's truly terminal, so we need to get a new one pronto (and in the meantime are bundled up, moving fan heaters with us from room to room and telling the kids it's character-building!).

My initial reaction was to get the cheapest possible boiler installed on the current system (think it's a vented system? Hot water cylinder by the boiler, tank(s) in the loft), on the basis that I understood it was a really bad idea to move a boiler once installed and so we'd be looking for something just to tide us over until the complete heating system overhaul next year and another new boiler - plus assumed we'd be looking for a different type of boiler for the permanent set-up. But now I'm hearing that it is in fact possible to re-site boilers (although obviously not ideal) and that we could the same one for the temp fix and the perm solution (I think hot water cylinder/megaflow, rather than combi). If that's so, it seems to make sense to buy a really decent boiler now, to be re-installed as part of the building work next year ( and we just have to stomach the fact that we'll be paying installation costs now, only to pay to have it moved next year).

I will get a couple of heating engineers recommended by friends in next week, to get them to recommend and quote. But I think it would really help me if I had my head a bit straighter about it all before having those conversations. I know from reading tons if other threads in this topic that you can get some great advice. So (if anyone reads this far - for which I'd be thankful in itself), what do you think I should do? Also, any specific questions I should ask the heating people/things pin them down on?

Thanks so much in advance!

We are in a similar position but so far our boiler is still going albeit with very odd noises.

Piglet john-help!

if you are trying to find recommendations for trusted local installers, ask them what they recommend, and what they would charge to re-site and re-install a boiler in a year or so.

Thanks for responding, PigletJohn. I will certainly do that - although I suspect the heating system work next year will be rolled into a larger contract. No harm in getting a separate quote from whoever we use now, though - so good point, thanks.

I've been doing a bit of research on boiler reliability. The Which site seems to favour Worcester and then, just behind, Vaillant. What I'm still not able to work out is whether you need different boilers for vented and unvented systems. I'm assuming that when we do the work next year we'll be wanting to switch to unvented and get rid of the cold water tanks in the loft, leaving us free rein if we manage to scrape the money together in the future to do a loft conversion. So if we need to get a boiler now that doesn't connect to a cold water tank, the installer will also now have to tackle the pipework that runs up to the tank in the loft and then back down to the taps? Hopefully all will become clear when we get installers in to quote! I'm also now finding combi boilers that claim to be able to cope with 4-bed houses with 2 bathrooms, so wondering whether I shouldn't have automatically ruled out that option...

vented boilers have their own small feed and expansion tank in the loft. You can use them to heat a hot water cylinder, even if the cylinder is fed from a cold tank in the loft (or if it isn't).

Unvented boilers are pressurised, but can still heat a hot water cylinder even if the cylinder is fed from a cold tank in the loft (or if it isn't).

Unvented boilers are usually "regular" or "conventional" boilers. There might possibly be some vented combis on the market. Many heating enginners look down on vented boilers as old fashioned, but they are still manufactured by the major companies. I have one.

A combi can be plumbed to heat a cylinder if you wish, this can be quite convenient if you have more than one bathroom as there will be plenty of hot water stored to run a bath. Any heating engineer over the age of 14 should know how to do it. Combis are fundemantally more complicated than regular boilers and have more inside them to go wrong, if that matters.

If you want a combi that can supply two bathrooms, you need a combi with a very large throughput, and you also need an incoming water supply pipe that delivers that large flow to the house. This may require a new larger pipe to be laid all the way to the watermain in the street, and all the way to the boiler, with large stopcocks to avoid restricting flow. Flow is not the same as pressure.

Can your hot water cylinder heat the water using an immersion? If so, I think I would be tempted to wait until the extension work to replace the boiler and muddle through the winter using plug-in radiators. It sounds as if whatever boiler you got now wouldn't necessarily be suitable for what you want when the house is replumbed so you could potentially spend £1000s on a short-term fix.

Thanks again, PigletJohn. So, if I've understood correctly, we could replace our vented boiler with either a vented or unvented one. Can I just ask a noddy question, please? Is the cold tank in the loft fed by a pipe connected directly to the mains supply? And then does water from the tank in the loft simply go straight down to the hot water cylinder?

I don't know how we're placed in terms of water flow, so getting a combi boiler has the potential to be an expensive option.

Hi Lala! Yes, we have an immersion heater on the hot water cylinder. It's a health hazard, I think, as it doesn't appear to have any kind of thermostat associated with it so the water that comes out of the tap can be scalding - but at least we're not without hot water as well as freezing. Note to self: should ask heating man to look at that too. We currently have a couple of fan heaters, which I couldn't bear to use long term because of the noise. We also have an oil-filled radiator which is much better (although I have no real clue of what it means for our electricity bill). I wouldn't mind relying on oil-filled radiators for the rest of the winter, but we'd probably need to buy at least 4 more, which would cost us close to £400 for decent ones. So I'm thinking we'd be better off putting that money towards boiler installation if (and as you've identified, it's currently a big if) we can get a boiler now that we can use post refurb too.

Really appreciate you both taking the time to reply! Not yet managed to get an installer round, so (despite best attempts with research) would still be very much in the dark if not for the helpful info.

Ask around friends and rellies - lots of people have an emergency radiator squirrelled away - they'll be cheaper to run than fan heaters.

We were in exactly this position last year! With hindsight I can't tell you how glad I am that it did indeed happen as we probably wouldn't have realised how much bigger the new bolier was and also the increased limitations on where it could be positioned (changes in regulations over teh years I believe)!

We ended up installing the long term boiler we wanted and although we got the precise location slightly out it was only a couple £100 to move it. We possibly slightly overspecced the boiler but in the scheme of things I'm glad it was this way rather than the other way.

The other good thing was that it gave us a chance to choose a plumber and try him out, so when it came to the rennovation it was one less headache. We had a few quotes and it soon became clear who just wanted to bung in a boiler and who really knew their stuff.

Do you know when you rennovate roughly where you want to site your new boiler? and also what your heating/hot water requirements are likely to be?

Is the cold tank in the loft fed by a pipe connected directly to the mains supply?

Yes

And then does water from the tank in the loft simply go straight down to the hot water cylinder?

Yes, but it may also feed the cold taps in the bathroom, for example if you are in London. There are some regional variations. Put your thumb over the cold tap and see if you can block the flow.

If you have a mixer shower in the bathroom it will (should) be fed with tank cold water if the hot comes from the tank.

It's a health hazard, I think, as it doesn't appear to have any kind of thermostat associated with it so the water that comes out of the tap can be scalding

then it is faulty and needs a new thermostat. A ten minute job for a plumber. If the cylinder and the immersion heater are so old that replacement thermostats to fit are no longer available, then you will need a new immersion heater. get an old plumber to change it because if it's that old the old one will be seized in place and difficult to remove without damaging the cylinder. An old plumber will have done it many times before.

...oil-filled radiators for the rest of the winter, but we'd probably need to buy at least 4 more, which would cost us close to £400 for decent ones

because of the way electric heaters work, a £19 2kW heater has exactly the same efficiency and output as a £899 2kW electric heater. It may not be quite so attractive as an ornament, though.

Get oil-filled rads because they are safer and less abrupt; get them with fitted thermostats; and get them with three heat setting (low, medium, high).

You're a legend, PigletJohn!

Mrs Fox - thanks for sharing. I don't know where we're going to put the boiler when we do the works - currently working with architect to work out where the utility room might go, which is where I've always assumed we'd put the boiler (and HW cylinder - or else that could go in the loft but then we might have to move it if we ever do a loft conversion). I've realised though that I don't even know if we want a boiler that sits on the floor or is wall-mounted (the latter, I suspect). But it will almost definitely have to be re-sited by a not insignificant distance.

I can also recommend the plug in electric Lakeland dryer which can double up as bath towel warmer/landing warmer. Electric blankets are also worth getting.

We had this situation - we chose to go from November - march without the central heating. And it was the winter of 2009-10 with loads of snow. Use the immersion for hot water and oil filled rads. Get into good habits like layers of clothes, always wearing slippers, shut curtains at dusk ... It is possible!!

Thanks, YeGods and Madness (good combination there!). Are oil-filled rads the best bet? Better than, say, panel heaters? Have determined that storage heaters are definitely too expensive for a quick fix.

Yes oil filled are much more economical to run, I think (am sure others can confirm). Storage heaters ok to put into, say, a property you're renting out for years on end. Not the most convenient of solutuons and as you say, expensive up front/to fit.

there's nothing in it for economy, amount of electricity used per heat output is the same for all electric heaters.

But oil filled are safer, as there is no red-hot element, and they give a more gentle and regular heat as they take time to warm up and cool down. If you were to accidentally drop e.g. clothes or a curtain on top, it would not start a fire (but the overheat would probably cut out)

There is a slight benefit as there is no smell of burning dust and spiders as happens with some other electric heaters.