A bit of clarification regarding 'fair wear and tear'?

[1charlie1]

Hi all. DH and I are moving out of our rented flat mid- December. We'll have been in the property exactly two years on the date we move out. Our final condition check will be done on that day. On the tenant check-out list that our agent sent us, there's a requirement that paintwork, skirtings etc are wiped down.

The cream coloured paint used in the flat is unbelievably poor quality -I've never seen anything like it, it sheds fine dust when you wipe it. i.e., if you wipe it with a cloth, cream colour transfers to the cloth, but any marks remain, as though they've seeped into the wall itself. This is only really a problem in the kitchen- the wall behind the bin, and the one above the cook top. There's some tea/food stains (sort of splash marks), which are impossible to remove - I tried within moments of them occurring. Can we be held responsible for these, or is it fair wear and tear (particularly given the crappy quality of the materials used to decorate)? I've never encountered anything like it in any kitchen I've had - walls which can't be wiped clean!

Thank you in advance for any advice.

Marking place!

How about shite carpets?

Would they trade off against fitted blinds and a curtain dividing a room from the damp and fucking freezing because they won't repair it and it was shit anyway conservatory?

Regarding paint, we are planning to touch up where we can (there were tins of paint left when we moved in) but it really is poor quality. We've also painted a wall red and I'm not sure how that will go down!

The paint in the kitchen sounds like its matt finish and is nigh on impossible to keep in good condition as we found out when we picked up the wrong tin.

Could you buy a cheap tin of magnolia or cream and paint the kitchen or touch it up?

Yes, crazykat, it is matte finish. And we could get a tin and touch up, I guess, but the question really is: Do we have to? Are we legally obliged to? The LL has decorated the flat so, so cheaply, and it is hard to keep in good condition - although we have been meticulous in caring for it, and other than the marks on the kitchen wall, it looks bloody great (if I do say so!)

I've regularly de-limescaled the cheap fittings in the bathroom, which look still look nearly brand new after two years, stainless steel polished the dreadful kitchen sink once a week etc etc. But it's just so much harder to look after poor quality things, and I kind of resent the tone of the tenant check out manual - it makes no differentiation in its expectation between the condition in which a tenant is expected to leave a stunning flat in Mayfair or a property like ours - a shabby, badly maintained flat, which the LL does the barest minimum to maintain. We've had problems with water running into our bedroom for months because he couldn't be bothered to fix the broken roof/ guttering, resulting mould etc etc.

I just read on another thread that a tenant was having a sum withheld from her deposit because of fingermarks on the light switches and a small mark on the carpet. I would be beyond furious if our agent tried anything like that with us...

I would argue that fair wear and tear is damage caused by doing completely normal things. So the carpet wearing thin on the stairs is fair wear and tear. Child snipping it while doing crafts on the floor is not.

OP, is your deposit held in a scheme?

Thanks, LadyMercy, that makes sense. Yes, our deposit is in a scheme. The agent has suggested we get the flat professionally cleaned (not suggested to us personally, but in the generic check out manual I guess all their tenants get), but it is really so, so clean. I admit to being completely anal about housekeeping and it would be ridiculous to pay someone a lot of money to clean an already immaculate property. But the agent requires you to attach the receipt for the professional company you've used to your final departure form, so they'll know we haven't used one. They can even kindly recommend particular cleaners for you, and I imagine the commission they get from these recommendations are another income stream for them.

I'm concerned they will use any excuse to withhold money from our deposit, so just want to clarify what we are genuinely required to do by law in order to get our deposit back.

I have just moved out of a rental flat after 4 years and the paintwork was pretty bad for us too. I wiped down the walls the best I could but the flat was so tired looking and in desperate need of redecorating that I chose not to do anything else. The day after we moved out they got the decorators in and we received our full deposit.

If the décor is generally not looking that great then I wouldn't go to too much effort. If it's only a small area that needs touching up then I would buy a wee tester pot, but wouldn't go to a lot of expense.

Oh and don't get professional cleaners in. They can't make you do that.

Thanks Weeantwee, that's comforting! The flat's already been rented out, to the first couple who viewed it, we really have kept it nice. I'll think about the tester pot... just not sure how to match the particular brand of awful that's currently on the walls!

OP, i would google unfair contract terms, like Weeantwee says, I'm not sure they can force you to professionally clean.

You are obliged to hand back the property in the same condition, less wear and tear. Anything that isn't wear and tear can be claimed for. Is there a check in inventory?

One more thing - the guidance in the check out manual suggests that if a mark on the wall can be wiped off, it's not fair wear and tear. But it still looks a bit awful...

Yes, LadyMercy, there is a check in inventory. And it says nothing in particular about cleanliness, but then again the walls had been freshly painted when we moved in, so I wouldn't expect there to be anything interesting noted on it.

I have sent the agents an email, requesting clarification in writing about the professional cleaning/ steam cleaning of carpets/ professional cleaning of curtains etc. they suggest in the manual. None of these things are required under the terms of our tenancy agreement, which just requires that things are generally 'clean' at the end of the tenancy. I emailed Monday morning, and haven't had any response yet.

As I've said on other threads I'm a pretty tough landlord (fed up of having tenants take the p)... anyway, after 2 years I would expect there to be all sorts of marks on the walls from general living and especially in the kitchen.

It sounds as if there should be no deductions for this.

As for the professional cleaning, we put that in our checkout material. It covers not only general cleaning, but carpets and the oven. Carpets is non negotiable (only professional washing gets rid of certain germs and bacteria), but a well cleaned house and oven would certainly be acceptable.

Ok, so assuming that you agreed with both the check in inventory and the check out inventory, i would have thought they can only go after you for things that are different between them.

If the check in inventory says: living room carpet, good condition and the check out sayd: living room carpet, good condition, i don't see how they can object to you cleaning it yourself. Go back to the check in report and have a read.

When the check out report gets done, try to be there.

Take anything in the check out manuel with a pinch of salt.

That's helpful, Sunnyshores, thanks for the insight. With regard to the carpet, it's two years old, there's no requirement in the contract that it be professionally cleaned, and in addition, we're a shoe free house. (I said I was a bit anal about the housekeeping...) Would you still expect steam cleaning? I know it makes the pile look great, but our Dyson (which we got brand new when we moved in and use often- we really are bloody good tenants!) does a great job too.

We even asked the agent to request shoes off during viewings (they ended up using shoe covers). We figured the agent would understand, and the prospective tenants would know that the property has been well-cared for. As it was, the first couple took the property, so we don't have to worry about further viewings in the wet weather!

LadyMercy, we've arranged the inspection for when we'll be present. I'm going to have another look at the inventory. It seems from other threads that the initial inventory can be quite cursory, but the final one much more detailed (finger marks on the light switches!) It's made me nervous.

Yes, I ALWAYS insist on the carpets being steam cleaned, as I said its a health issue it can cause toxi-something in children and elderly. We write it into the contract as well, so absolutely it has to be done.

I really wouldnt worry, it sounds as if you have been very careful and clean all through the tenancy. There isnt much potential for landlords withholding money unless the inventory is very detailed and there are photos showing clearly before and after.

From my experience the check out is always awful, they will look at every mark and smear unless it is immaculate. Good luck.

Will you have a chance to rectify anything that they say is bad?

OK, Sunnyshores, thanks, I'll wait and see how the agent responds to my email, and be prepared to be flexible with regard to the steam cleaning.
MinimalistMommi, that's what I'm wary of. They really didn't look closely at things during the inventory preparation, and I worry they will suddenly be far more demanding this end of the process. I'm so annoyed at a few things I didn't photograph. For example, the one kitchen drawer (yes, there's only one drawer in the kitchen) was chock full of rusty bolts, screws, broken bits of tools. But the check out document tells us to wipe out all shelving etc! I mean, I would do this anyway, simply out of respect for the incoming tenants, but the agents are having a laugh with a lot of it...
I have already emailed the inspection company regarding our date/time, so I'll make sure I email them again and ask about rectification. That's a helpful point, thank you.

We've been burnt badly in the past so I've learnt from experience. One house let us go back and rectify anything which certainly saved us money but not everyone will allow you to do it. I hope it goes ok.

Our landlord had left loads of stuff in the kitchen drawers, garage and shed which we carefully wrapped, labelled and packed up in boxes. On checkout the agent first asked why they weren't back in the drawers - we'd already asked whether we needed to replace and since landlord is re-letting the answer was no and then proceeded to unwrap and photograph assorted knives, forks, weedkiller etc - crazy.

Good luck, it's very stressful.

Frostyfingers, that made me smile! I don't think we'll have that problem, as the initial inspection didn't involve them checking inside the drawer, or the cupboards. Which is why it's a bit annoying that we've been told to wipe everything out when no-one checked that it'd been done for us before we moved in.
Travelin, I think we will get a small pot of paint and do some touch ups. Easier than spending the next few weeks fretting about it...

Oh dear, I am sorry i read this now. We are moving out of our second rented house next month too (giving notice tomorrow).
Our first rented place (6 months) was to a very laid back kind of LL and there was never anything official and all ended very well for both of us.
This place, we have been in for 2.5 years, and was in OK state, but not perfect. I took some photos at the time, which i will use if necessary. We were also left with loads of crap in the cupboards and garage, all itemised, but actually a load of junk which owners couldn't take overseas when they moved.

We have been very careful and it certainly wasn't perfect when we moved - but we will follow advice here.

Our previous house had a clause in the contract about having it 'professionally cleaned' but we absolutely refused to even think about that. It was absolutely filthy when we moved in (it took me 2 whole days of scrubbing to get the layers of grease off everything in the kitchen, for example).

It probably isn't lawful for any LL to insist that tenants have the carpets professionally cleaned. The carpets not being germ-free and spotless are absolutely 'fair wear and tear' because carpets get a bit dirty from normal living even with regular hoovering. You're supposed to return the property in the same condition you got it with allowances for everything being 2 years (or however long you've been there) more lived in.

The most important thing to remember is that you're not obliged to return the property in any better condition than it was in when you got it. So if it wasn't professionally cleaned when you moved in, it doesn't need to be professionally cleaned when you move out.